Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Briars]

He ruled out floor dust and identified Sollecito. He was being generous when he said he couldn't rule out contamination , there still needs to be a plausible source and realistic transfer. Meredith was moved . To avoid blood and contact with her her bra was the natural way to pull and move her. With her weight the bra straps snapped then the back band was used causing the clasp to give way. Once on her back her shirt was lifted and the broken bra removed. The pillow was then place which covered the clasp.The rest of the clothing was discarded. This to me explains how the DNA probably got on the bra hook.

 

[Briars]

Check out the entry on DNA in domestic violence cases at ViewFromWilmington. We don't know whether or not the forensic team swabbed the bruised areas.

Unless you have evidence they didn't swab suggesting it was an oversight rather than no DNA present is not helpful.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

burden of proof

Unless you have evidence they didn't swab suggesting it was an oversight rather than no DNA present is not helpful.

Do you have evidence that they did swab?

 

[Dan O.]

There is no excuse for a 20 year old to giggle joke and kiss at the questura, She made everyone uncomfortable . You could argue that she is innocent an extreme narcissistic and cared more about not having the murder interfer with her fun . To argue that her behavior including her delayed retraction of her accusation against Lumumba was normal doesn't work.

Prove it then. Show some actual evidence. Find a behavioral study. Do your own study and document actual behaviors versus actual guilt. Show us that there is actually a correlation. So far it's just your belief that everything that Amanda does is a sign of guilt. To me it all looks like confirmation bias on your part.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

DNA and dust

He ruled out floor dust and identified Sollecito. He was being generous when he said he couldn't rule out contamination , there still needs to be a plausible source and realistic transfer. Meredith was moved.

Nowhere in his paper does Dr. Baldwin discuss dust as a source of DNA. He did do so by implication in his Q and A, but that is not the same thing at all (it is not peer-reviewed). I just gave you three plausibility arguments about the source of DNA on the clasp. Moreover, neither you nor anyone else has explained what is fundamentally and objectively different between Sollecito's putative profile, and the the other DNA in the YSTR analysis, or the additional, non-Meredith alleles in the autosomal profile. In addition, if you accept that the other profiles are from the environment, then the bra clasp was indeed contaminated by the Van Oorshot definition, and game over.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

one must examine the EDFs

He was being generous when he said he couldn't rule out contamination , there still needs to be a plausible source and realistic transfer.

Briars,

Dr. Balding acknowledged that he had not examined the EDFs. Therefore, there is no way that he or any other expert could possibly rule out contamination.

 

[Briars]

Nowhere in his paper does Dr. Baldwin discuss dust as a source of DNA. He did do so by implication in his Q and A, but that is not the same thing at all (it is not peer-reviewed). I just gave you three plausibility arguments about the source of DNA on the clasp. Moreover, neither you nor anyone else has explained what is fundamentally and objectively different between Sollecito's putative profile, and the the other DNA in the YSTR analysis, or the additional, non-Meredith alleles in the autosomal profile. In addition, if you accept that the other profiles are from the environment, then the bra clasp was indeed contaminated by the Van Oorshot definition, and game over.

The complete profiles belong to Meredith and Sollecito. The partial could have been from Merediths own hand when she held her boyfirends. That partial does not interfere with Sollecito's complete and good sized sample.There needs to be a source for his good sample,

 

[Dan O.]

On the day Meredith was discovered there were a group of young people (friends and acquaintances) of a similar age from difference countries and cultures all reacting in a similar fashion to the realisation that someone they all knew had been murdered, in that context based on comments at the time Raffaele and Amanda’s behaviour were at odds that is to say different from everyone else.

Have you got documentation to show those comments were actually made at that time or were they all comments made after Amanda and Raffaele were arrested and changed?

Looking at one incident like the above one could say, so what. However, putting the various examples together I can understand why the police would have noticed. Indeed, the memorial held fort Meredith, I believe Raffaele and Amanda were the only friends or acquaintances who did not attend, I don’t think Filomena or Laura attended either but they weren’t students and had day jobs.

Who at that memorial besides Patrick did Amanda know? This was a group of people that knew each other and knew Meredith. It was Meredith's friends and classmates from school and the groups she hung out with at the bars. They didn't know Amanda, Raffaele, Filomena or Laura.

It's just another guilter meme that has absolutely no relevance.

 

[Dan O.]

The point I am making is the difference in their reaction would have been noticed by any experienced homicide detective.

Noticed at the time and actually written and filed before a decision to charge had been made or noticed and entered as testimony in court but without contemporaneous documentation.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

FBI study on clothing and DNA

The complete profiles belong to Meredith and Sollecito. The partial could have been from Merediths own hand when she held her boyfirends. That partial does not interfere with Sollecito's complete and good sized sample.There needs to be a source for his good sample,

You are not reading my comments carefully. One, Sollecito's profile was not good sized; it was on the borderline of being low template. Two, scroll up a few comments to one I made near 9:50, and you will see that I discussed two routes (routes that I have discussed at length many times previously) and also one plausibility argument based on an FBI study, with respect to the clasp DNA. Trying to determine a means of transfer by whether the profile is partial or complete or by how large the peaks are is a misguided approach. Please ask questions if you don't understand something.

 

[Dan O.]

Bliars, I totally agree but these guys reaction to just saying she acted strange is unbelievable, they just can't say, 'yes, she acted strangely' and be done with it, they have to argue, that's what they do, they will change around everything you say as well, and then add a 'what does that have to do with the murder', complete denial, hilarious. Where Grinder when you need him?

Try sticking around and actually arguing your case with documentation and evidence sometime.

 

[Briars]

You think there needs to be a study to confirm that laughing kissing and making faces is innapropriate after your good friend was just murdered? Who's going to fund that? Try to argue something that you stand a chance with. The discussion was whether that was odd behavior. You're not being asked whether she is guilty rather whether she behaved badly or not.If that causes you stress watch the Cnn special again that aired last night. It was so full of errors , I'd be interested to know what people here thought of it.

 

[Dan O.]

Please point out the post # were I used the word suspicious?

Post #4646

 

[Briars]

I don't believe transfer from a towel(which towel the bloody(ones)is plausible , nor did I hear of DNA on the door handle. The bra was the natural source for moving and dragging Meredith. The stress,the exact point where the bra was strongest the middle or clasp was where it broke and we found Sollecito's DNA. Add to that the knife with its DNA from Meredith and it is what it is . Of course my opinion is shaped by far more including the fake break-in and DNA and mixed blood samples changing alibis etc etc.

 

[anglolawyer]

I don't believe transfer from a towel(which towel the bloody(ones)is plausible , nor did I hear of DNA on the door handle. The bra was the natural source for moving and dragging Meredith. The stress,the exact point where the bra was strongest the middle or clasp was where it broke and we found Sollecito's DNA. Add to that the knife with its DNA from Meredith and it is what it is . Of course my opinion is shaped by far more including the fake break-in and DNA and mixed blood samples changing alibis etc etc.

So the strange behaviour is no part of it? Whatever. You don't believe she took a shower so you must believe she left Raf's print (it's his, right?) for the cops to find. Why? And why were blood spots not completely cleaned up in the bathroom when it would have been easy to do that? You must have this figured out. Please explain it. This is behaviour we can all agree is relevant.

Actually, going back to it, even the 'strange' behaviour at the questura is kind of weird if one assumes she is a murderess who ought to have wanted to melt into the background rather than call attention to herself. That must be the narcissistic personality at work. Raffaele must have been alarmed. First she left his foot print and then she practically announces 'we did it! LOL'. But then he was completely in her power so that explains it.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't believe transfer from a towel(which towel the bloody(ones)is plausible , nor did I hear of DNA on the door handle. The bra was the natural source for moving and dragging Meredith. The stress,the exact point where the bra was strongest the middle or clasp was where it broke and we found Sollecito's DNA. Add to that the knife with its DNA from Meredith and it is what it is . Of course my opinion is shaped by far more including the fake break-in and DNA and mixed blood samples changing alibis etc etc.

And how long have you been an expert Briars when it comes to forensic science? Please enlighten us as to your qualifications.

Frankly all of your conclusions are tautologies. You start with Amanda and Raffaele being guilty and think that evidence through to the conclusion you start with.

 

[RWVBWL]

The Candle

Try sticking around and actually arguing your case with documentation and evidence sometime.

Hi Dan O., Brairs and everyone else...

I'd like to bring up some evidence that I don't recall having read about before, maybe you folks can chime in and give me your thoughts on this,
but it has nothing to do with the current discussion regarding Amanda Knox's behavior though.


It had seemed that most here were under the impression that Miss Kercher was attacked and killed right when she got home.

Heck, she did not even remove her jacket that she was wearing.

Apparently though,
Meredith did light an orange Halloween candle shaped like a pumpkin after she entered her bedroom.

This lit candle, it seems, was placed on her nightstand.

After being found murdered,
a glass of water, half full is seen on Meredith's nightstand,

as are, it appears, letters waiting to be mailed, and other items.


That Halloween pumpkin candle that I just learned about was apparently knocked over during the attack, sexual assault or murder.
Black candle wax is seen on the floor with blood around it.


+



Someone then put that Halloween pumpkin candle into the kitchen sink.



Strangley though, that glass of water was not knocked over.

Why not?


Was that glass of water placed there after the murder by whomever put the Halloween pumpkin candle in the sink?
Was it ever tested for DNA or fingerprints?

I did not ever read that Mez was a smoker.
How did she light that candle?
Did she carry a lighter, or was a match used?
If so, was 1 found and tested for DNA or fingerprints?
Who puts a lit candle near the edge of a nightstandwhere it can be knocked over easy?
Was that candle, which was obviously picked up by someone, tested for fingerprints too?

Weird that I don't recall reading discussion of The Candle.
Thoughts anyone?

 

[JREF2010]

I don't believe transfer from a towel(which towel the bloody(ones)is plausible , nor did I hear of DNA on the door handle. The bra was the natural source for moving and dragging Meredith. The stress,the exact point where the bra was strongest the middle or clasp was where it broke and we found Sollecito's DNA. Add to that the knife with its DNA from Meredith and it is what it is . Of course my opinion is shaped by far more including the fake break-in and DNA and mixed blood samples changing alibis etc etc.

How does a pgp create the threesome party? what timeline, wheres the proof of the three hooking up? there isn't any proof that Ive heard of.

the interrogation is a lie, coercion and spewing with police dishonesty.
then theres the forensic mess, poorly done, so bad the courtroom was laughing out loud at the video.

then the acquittal was the C&V independent review, they left the scathing summary of the DNA, which had all the party's present as you know.

have you ever read the DNA report by the experts, which was more thorough than the sloppy and poorly organized, Stefonani work?
Due to poor sloppy forensic work they couldn't review the bra clasp any closer as you know.
The peaks ignored was not explained by Stephony. Anyone could be "created" from the garbage, the chart levels of the RFU magnified in a dishonest way.

etc...etc..

 

[Dan O.]

He ruled out floor dust and identified Sollecito. He was being generous when he said he couldn't rule out contamination , there still needs to be a plausible source and realistic transfer. Meredith was moved . To avoid blood and contact with her her bra was the natural way to pull and move her. With her weight the bra straps snapped then the back band was used causing the clasp to give way. Once on her back her shirt was lifted and the broken bra removed. The pillow was then place which covered the clasp.The rest of the clothing was discarded. This to me explains how the DNA probably got on the bra hook.

All you have is a conjecture. I have offered an alternate conjecture that Meredith's bra in the preceding week had at one point been on the drying rack in the hall and Raffaele being a young male and naturally curious about the private attire of the opposite sex and without giving it a moment's thought had run a finger nail under one of the hooks. This is so much more plausible than your scenario because it actually explains why the hook is exposed.

As for your scenario, there is abundant DNA on the back band of the bra near where the clasp was attached. This location is coincidentally one would grab to use the bra as a handle to move a body that is lying on its left shoulder (as Meredith was when she was facing the side of the closet and coughing blood). This location on the band is also coincidentally where one could pull and cause the right strap to unstitch right down to where the clasp is attached and the removal of those stitches would weaken the clasp causing it to unstitch from the band and transferring all of the weight to the left shoulder strap which would then break allowing the body to fall and leaving the extracted bra in the hand of the assailant. And who is this assailant that left their DNA on this particular spot of the BRA? Why it is none other than Rudy Guede.

If Rudy is lifting Meredith by the bra band, where is Raffaele supposed to be standing to assist in this maneuver? And how is Raffele supposed to make contact with this hook? While the bra attached to Meredith, the hooks are safely facing into the end of the band holding the eyes. Once the hook end breaks free, there is no need to touch the hooks.

 

[RWVBWL]

I've read that Meredith's rent $$$ was stolen,
as were her credit cards, her cell phones, her keys.

I still wonder what ever happened to Amanda's rent $$$,
never got an answer, anyone know?

Looking at this pic of the kitchen table,

it sure looks like somebody rifled thru and/or emptied the contents of this black bag/black case seen on the table.
Anyone know whom it belonged to?