Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Antony]

Why not describe it as a sex game with one of the group unwilling and restrained? Evidence of mutiple attackers ,taunting cuts,finger tip bruising on her arm by restraint , clothing removed and virtual no defense wounds. What would you call it? The gone wrong part may have been her death. Gone wrong or (gone too far ),giving the accused the benefit of 2nd degree murder not first.

Briars, even Massei accepted that the murder scene and the state of the body was consistent with a single attacker. The "lack of defensive wounds" doesn't indicate forcible restraint; a single attacker armed with a knife can easily subdue his victim through fear - the lack of signs of resistance merely indicate that Meredith initially judged that her best chance was not to fight back.

You are citing evidence that does not exist.

 

[acbytesla]

Why not describe it as a sex game with one of the group unwilling and restrained? Evidence of mutiple attackers ,taunting cuts,finger tip bruising on her arm by restraint , clothing removed and virtual no defense wounds. What would you call it? The gone wrong part may have been her death. Gone wrong or (gone too far ),giving the accused the benefit of 2nd degree murder not first.

This of course totally ignores the blood splatter evidence. There also was no "taunting" cuts. Notice that Meredith's clothes were not removed before her throat was cut, but after. In fact her sweatshirt was turned inside out with the vast majority of the blood around the collar, exactly where you would expect it to be if someone's throat was cut from behind and was still wearing the shirt.

 

[billyryan]

Seattleites aren't unaware of social norms; they are aware of their own social norms, which are relaxed. (ETA: You can wear jeans anywhere, but you are supposed to be nice to other people.) Seattle is politically liberal, and for most liberals, empathy is very high on their list of values. A comedian once joked that Seattle is the only place where a Yield sign means, "Stop, build a house, raise a family."

If Seattle were constantly under some kind of dreamy haze, I doubt the rest of the world would ever board a Boeing airplane, order a book from Amazon or use Microsoft products.



Well, yeah.



One very bad thing about Seattle is its public school system. Fully one-third of kids who start high school in Seattle drop out before graduation; that may be due to the culture of the schools or the culture of the town, I don't know.

Amanda had the self-discipline to make it through four years of Jesuit high school with honors. She worked while attending the University of Washington (not that easy to get into nowadays) and saved enough to go to Europe. While in prison she became fluent in Italian, and now she has written a book over 400 pages in length. What kind of good behavior are you looking for?

As for empathy, are you forgetting that she wrote that she understood why the police were so freaked out when they interrogated her? Are you forgetting that she thanked the court for their hard work at her first trial?

When you look at Amanda putting on booties and saying "ta-da," you see radically inappropriate behavior. When I look at that scene, I see a girl who is aware that another person is present and who wants to respond to him, maybe even amuse or entertain him, both out of social conditioning and out of respect. After growing up female in Seattle, it took me literally decades to realize I didn't have to smile at every person I came into contact with. Poor Amanda learned that lesson much more quickly.

Boeing,Amazon and Microsoft what wonderful achievements for the people of Seattle to give to the world when you compare it with what Perugia has to offer,kangeroo courts lying forensic scientists,although maybe Rome lays claim to them, and evidence planting police and when you look at their ability to switch on or operate recording equipment or examine computer activity,it make the achievements of the people of Seattle down right spectacular,I would really hate to fly in a Boeing 747 built by the kind of people who examined Amanda's and Raffaele's computers

 

[acbytesla]

Boeing,Amazon and Microsoft what wonderful achievements for the people of Seattle to give to the world when you compare it with what Perugia has to offer,kangeroo courts lying forensic scientists,although maybe Rome lays claim to them, and evidence planting police and when you look at their ability to switch on or operate recording equipment or examine computer activity,it make the achievements of the people of Seattle down right spectacular,I would really hate to fly in a Boeing 747 built by the kind of people who examined Amanda's and Raffaele's computers

Yea, remember that Boeing tried to farm out to Italy the building of the carbon fiber fuselages of the Dreamliner to an Italian company but the company kept screwing up, so Boeing bought the company and brought all the manufacturing of the fuselages back to the US.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

zippety do dah

Why not describe it as a sex game with one of the group unwilling and restrained? Evidence of mutiple attackers ,taunting cuts,finger tip bruising on her arm by restraint , clothing removed and virtual no defense wounds. What would you call it? The gone wrong part may have been her death. Gone wrong or (gone too far ),giving the accused the benefit of 2nd degree murder not first.

Briars, No one until the last few months ago used the phrase "taunting cuts," leading me to wonder just who cooked up this phraseology. There is nothing in the Massei report to support a theory of "taunting cuts," and there is information in Massei to the effect that no forensic evidence ruled out a single attacker. If Raffaele or Amanda restrained Meredith to the point of bruising, there should have been DNA transfer. I wouldn't call it a certainty, but I would say that it is well over 50% likely to happen.

A better question is, "What evidence of a sex game gone wrong is there?" Zippity do dah. There is no communication from AK and RS to RG or vice versa. There is no CCTV footage showing AK or RS anywhere. There is no easy way for AK to communicate with RG on the basis of language.

 

[Briars]

This of course totally ignores the blood splatter evidence. There also was no "taunting" cuts. Notice that Meredith's clothes were not removed before her throat was cut, but after. In fact her sweatshirt was turned inside out with the vast majority of the blood around the collar, exactly where you would expect it to be if someone's throat was cut from behind and was still wearing the shirt.

You are ignoring the evidence of multiple assailants the courts will not. The clothing was completely removed after the fatal cuts for the purpose of staging .The evidence points to mutliple attackers who taunted and restrained Meredith. Staging a sexual attack after mortally wounding the victim is a sexual game. The sexual violence seen in psycho killer comics is repulsive to most people but others pay for that kind of thing. No one has come up with a plausible explanation for how the healthy sample of Sollecito's DNA landed on the clasp. Anne B going on about how it was kicked and kicked was a joke, I believe the back of the bra was used to lift Meredith and the metal hook was the point of contact that dug into Sollecito's finger.

 

[Mary_H]

Briars, No one until the last few months ago used the phrase "taunting cuts," leading me to wonder just who cooked up this phraseology. There is nothing in the Massei report to support a theory of "taunting cuts," and there is information in Massei to the effect that no forensic evidence ruled out a single attacker. If Raffaele or Amanda restrained Meredith to the point of bruising, there should have been DNA transfer. I wouldn't call it a certainty, but I would say that it is well over 50% likely to happen.<snip>

One of Mignini's claims at the first trial was that Amanda taunted Meredith with the knife, leaving small cuts.

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/young/amanda_knox/9.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/11/20/amanda.knox.trial.arguments/

 

[Supernaut]

You are ignoring the evidence of multiple assailants the courts will not. ....

Ah-Haaaa!!!

NOT!!!!!

 

[Briars]

Briars, No one until the last few months ago used the phrase "taunting cuts," leading me to wonder just who cooked up this phraseology. There is nothing in the Massei report to support a theory of "taunting cuts," and there is information in Massei to the effect that no forensic evidence ruled out a single attacker. If Raffaele or Amanda restrained Meredith to the point of bruising, there should have been DNA transfer. I wouldn't call it a certainty, but I would say that it is well over 50% likely to happen.

A better question is, "What evidence of a sex game gone wrong is there?" Zippity do dah. There is no communication from AK and RS to RG or vice versa. There is no CCTV footage showing AK or RS anywhere. There is no easy way for AK to communicate with RG on the basis of language.

No you certainly shouldn't call it a certaintly or even 50% , Too late for that I already saw pictures of the finger bruising on this site , pictures of finger tip bruising on her arm and neck. 0 for 0 DNA

 

[Bill Williams]

Why not describe it as a sex game with one of the group unwilling and restrained? Evidence of mutiple attackers ,taunting cuts,finger tip bruising on her arm by restraint , clothing removed and virtual no defense wounds. What would you call it? The gone wrong part may have been her death. Gone wrong or (gone too far ),giving the accused the benefit of 2nd degree murder not first.

Briars, even Massei accepted that the murder scene and the state of the body was consistent with a single attacker. The "lack of defensive wounds" doesn't indicate forcible restraint; a single attacker armed with a knife can easily subdue his victim through fear - the lack of signs of resistance merely indicate that Meredith initially judged that her best chance was not to fight back.

You are citing evidence that does not exist.

Briars... I thought you were not going to discuss evidence? You say you've listed it elsewhere and don't want to repeat it.... my apologies, but when you then DO cite snippets, can one assume that this is the most convincing of what you otherwise say is persuasive evidence?

So far, you have cited Knox's bathmat shuffle as a sign of her alleged narcissistic personality.... I looked that up in the Psychological manual and didn't find it....

Now you cite evidence of "taunting cuts". What? "Finger tip bruising on her arms"? Made by whom? There is only one, and rather full, set of forensics belonging to one person only - Rudy Guede. Who might this second (ir third) person be? Were they hovering and were they wearing hazmat suits so as not to exchange DNA with their victim? An exchange virtually guaranteed if they produced bruising on their victim, as you (with no evidence other than the assertion) suggest.

But I really want to get back to Seattle. You talked a lot about social norms and said something about not knowing about Seattle, but that there are social norms that Amanda (apparently) violated.

I think you should have stopped when you admitted: I don't know about Seattle. What it says to me is that you are prepared to exercise your confirmation bias, while at the same time admitting you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Draca]

You are ignoring the evidence of multiple assailants the courts will not. The clothing was completely removed after the fatal cuts for the purpose of staging.

No and no.
1. The bra was NOT cut off, it was torn off.
2. The bra was removed after MK was stabbed but still breathing. Proof of that is aspiration marks on her breasts where the bra would have covered them. Are you saying staging took place already in the short time frame MK was alive after being stabbed?

The evidence points to mutliple attackers who taunted and restrained Meredith.

What evidence?

Staging a sexual attack after mortally wounding the victim is a sexual game. The sexual violence seen in psycho killer comics is repulsive to most people but others pay for that kind of thing.[

What staging? Where is this staging you talk of?

No one has come up with a plausible explanation for how the healthy sample of Sollecito's DNA landed on the clasp. Anne B going on about how it was kicked and kicked was a joke

No one has come up with explanation of where multiple donors on the clasp came from. It was contaminated.

I believe the back of the bra was used to lift Meredith and the metal hook was the point of contact that dug into Sollecito's finger.

Completely unproven belief.

 

[Bill Williams]

You are ignoring the evidence of multiple assailants the courts will not.

The two fact finding courts, one now with their verdict quashed, both said that a single attacker was likely. The only reason Massei ruled about multiple attackers is that he found two people guilty, not because of any evidence.

The clothing was completely removed after the fatal cuts for the purpose of staging.

Who did this staging? Please explain how if Amanda allegedly did it, that she remained forensically clean, and did not transfer any of her own DNA to the victim or to the scene? The fact is, there was no staging, or else the forensics would have pointed to it.

You do realize, don't you, that the "staging" that Massei convicted the pair about was in Filomena's room? You are making reference to stuff in Meredith's room with no evidence, other than assertion, to back it up.

The evidence points to mutliple attackers who taunted and restrained Meredith.

What evidence? Exspecially, what evidence of "taunting" other than what (as Mary as posted) Migini asserted at trial? You do note, don't you, that even Judge Massei rejected this... and he'd had the advantage of hearing the evidence given by Meredith's boyfriend and Filomena and the rest, and concluded that Amanda and Meredith had a normal friendship. In short, there is NO evidence at all of "tauniting cuts".

Staging a sexual attack after mortally wounding the victim is a sexual game. The sexual violence seen in psycho killer comics is repulsive to most people but others pay for that kind of thing.

Wow. For someone who said you did not want to re-list the evidence you present, you are certainly on a roll here! Thank you for giving it a go.

Once again, please describe how such a staging can take place in Meredith's room without any forensics pointing to Raffaele and Amanda? I include Raffaele on the off chance that he used the bra-clasp as the chief leverage to move things around.

No one has come up with a plausible explanation for how the healthy sample of Sollecito's DNA landed on the clasp. Anne B going on about how it was kicked and kicked was a joke, I believe the back of the bra was used to lift Meredith and the metal hook was the point of contact that dug into Sollecito's finger.

God for you for believing that. However, this is not about "belief", which can be tainted by confirmation bias, this is about evidence.

Strangely, the single Y-Haplotype can be matched to many men - but it does rule out Amanda! And you are aware that the clasp was found 47 days later, after the scientific police had supposedly finished their evaluation of the scene, but then had to re-evaluate 47 days later after they still had nothing on Raffaele! The bra clasp was in a different position, and a film taken by the SP themselves shows them passing it from dirty glove to dirty glove before replacing it on the floor for photographing of where they found it!

Yup, that pretty much eliminates contamination.

 

[Bill Williams]

This leads me to ask the following question, How does the prosecution prove this sex game theory when not one single shred of evidence has ever been produced supporting it? Raffaele doesn't support it, Rudy doesn't support it, there is never been anyone or any thing that has supported this violent sex game theory. Is it possible that Rudy will change his testimony now because of the temptation of an early release?

Will the prosecution bring forth some BDSM character from Seattle to tell the court just what a violent sex freak Amanda is? Will the prosecution say that they found in the attic of Amanda's room, a bunch of whips and handcuffs. bondage toys etc. ?

Seriously, how can they even begin to prove such a ridiculous theory?

Particularly difficult for the new prosecution in Florence will be trying to prove it when even Mignini abandoned it.... in favour of putting Filomena the British friends and Meredith's boyfriend on the stand to demonstrate how at odds Meredith and Amanda were.

Except.... well, except for a racing stripe in the toilet and Amanda playing the same chord on the guitar, everyone testified to how they were basically having a normal relationship.

So what did Mignini do? He abandoned the very motive that he'd abandoned the sex-game for! (Does that make sense?)

Do they pay the Florence prosecutor enough? Then again, in Italy it seems that prosecutorial assertion IS a substitute for evidence. If the prosecutor alleges it, then it is up to the defence to disprove it.

Personally, I believe Amanda Knox is responsible for the Detroit Lions' 0-16 season a few years ago. I dare you to prove me wrong.

 

[Briars]

The two fact finding courts, one now with their verdict quashed, both said that a single attacker was likely. The only reason Massei ruled about multiple attackers is that he found two people guilty, not because of any evidence.

Who did this staging? Please explain how if Amanda allegedly did it, that she remained forensically clean, and did not transfer any of her own DNA to the victim or to the scene? The fact is, there was no staging, or else the forensics would have pointed to it.

You do realize, don't you, that the "staging" that Massei convicted the pair about was in Filomena's room? You are making reference to stuff in Meredith's room with no evidence, other than assertion, to back it up.


What evidence? Exspecially, what evidence of "taunting" other than what (as Mary as posted) Migini asserted at trial? You do note, don't you, that even Judge Massei rejected this... and he'd had the advantage of hearing the evidence given by Meredith's boyfriend and Filomena and the rest, and concluded that Amanda and Meredith had a normal friendship. In short, there is NO evidence at all of "tauniting cuts".


Wow. For someone who said you did not want to re-list the evidence you present, you are certainly on a roll here! Thank you for giving it a go.

Once again, please describe how such a staging can take place in Meredith's room without any forensics pointing to Raffaele and Amanda? I include Raffaele on the off chance that he used the bra-clasp as the chief leverage to move things around.


God for you for believing that. However, this is not about "belief", which can be tainted by confirmation bias, this is about evidence.

Strangely, the single Y-Haplotype can be matched to many men - but it does rule out Amanda! And you are aware that the clasp was found 47 days later, after the scientific police had supposedly finished their evaluation of the scene, but then had to re-evaluate 47 days later after they still had nothing on Raffaele! The bra clasp was in a different position, and a film taken by the SP themselves shows them passing it from dirty glove to dirty glove before replacing it on the floor for photographing of where they found it!

Yup, that pretty much eliminates contamination.[ I defer to the expert who Chris interviewed and who made a positive ID for Sollecito on the clasp, Straight taught no nonsense about dusty floor DNA which was kicked about. Other than planting you have failed to produce a reasonable alternative to Sollecito lifting Meredith. The staging part in her room comes into play with why would Guede do that and leave his hand print and other evidence. Micheli felt a sexual assualt was emphasized with the clothing removal. There was evidence of Sollecito in her room which does implicate Amanda. The foot print of Amanda's which revealing blood with luminal means she was in the room as well.The print blood tranfer from the bathmat shuffle is not believable. Nor is a barefoot juice or rust combo print.

 

[MDDVS]

The two fact finding courts, one now with their verdict quashed, both said that a single attacker was likely. The only reason Massei ruled about multiple attackers is that he found two people guilty, not because of any evidence.

Who did this staging? Please explain how if Amanda allegedly did it, that she remained forensically clean, and did not transfer any of her own DNA to the victim or to the scene? The fact is, there was no staging, or else the forensics would have pointed to it.

You do realize, don't you, that the "staging" that Massei convicted the pair about was in Filomena's room? You are making reference to stuff in Meredith's room with no evidence, other than assertion, to back it up.


What evidence? Exspecially, what evidence of "taunting" other than what (as Mary as posted) Migini asserted at trial? You do note, don't you, that even Judge Massei rejected this... and he'd had the advantage of hearing the evidence given by Meredith's boyfriend and Filomena and the rest, and concluded that Amanda and Meredith had a normal friendship. In short, there is NO evidence at all of "tauniting cuts".


Wow. For someone who said you did not want to re-list the evidence you present, you are certainly on a roll here! Thank you for giving it a go.

Once again, please describe how such a staging can take place in Meredith's room without any forensics pointing to Raffaele and Amanda? I include Raffaele on the off chance that he used the bra-clasp as the chief leverage to move things around.


God for you for believing that. However, this is not about "belief", which can be tainted by confirmation bias, this is about evidence.

Strangely, the single Y-Haplotype can be matched to many men - but it does rule out Amanda! And you are aware that the clasp was found 47 days later, after the scientific police had supposedly finished their evaluation of the scene, but then had to re-evaluate 47 days later after they still had nothing on Raffaele! The bra clasp was in a different position, and a film taken by the SP themselves shows them passing it from dirty glove to dirty glove before replacing it on the floor for photographing of where they found it!

Yup, that pretty much eliminates contamination.[ I defer to the expert who Chris interviewed and who made a positive ID for Sollecito on the clasp, Straight taught no nonsense about dusty floor DNA which was kicked about. Other than planting you have failed to produce a reasonable alternative to Sollecito lifting Meredith. The staging part in her room comes into play with why would Guede do that and leave his hand print and other evidence. Micheli felt a sexual assualt was emphasized with the clothing removal. There was evidence of Sollecito in her room which does implicate Amanda. The foot print of Amanda's which revealing blood with luminal means she was in the room as well.The print blood tranfer from the bathmat shuffle is not believable. Nor is a barefoot juice or rust combo print.

How do you know that the footprint was made in blood?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

DNA and domestic violence

No you certainly shouldn't call it a certaintly or even 50% , Too late for that I already saw pictures of the finger bruising on this site , pictures of finger tip bruising on her arm and neck. 0 for 0 DNA

Check out the entry on DNA in domestic violence cases at ViewFromWilmington. We don't know whether or not the forensic team swabbed the bruised areas.

 

[acbytesla]

Yup, that pretty much eliminates contamination.[ I defer to the expert who Chris interviewed and who made a positive ID for Sollecito on the clasp, Straight taught no nonsense about dusty floor DNA which was kicked about. Other than planting you have failed to produce a reasonable alternative to Sollecito lifting Meredith. The staging part in her room comes into play with why would Guede do that and leave his hand print and other evidence. Micheli felt a sexual assualt was emphasized with the clothing removal. There was evidence of Sollecito in her room which does implicate Amanda. The foot print of Amanda's which revealing blood with luminal means she was in the room as well.The print blood tranfer from the bathmat shuffle is not believable. Nor is a barefoot juice or rust combo print.

Really? This eliminates contamination? The expert that you are speaking about said no such thing. While he doubted that dust on the floor was the reason for contamination, he certainly DID not rule it out contamination that way or through other methods of contamination including the passing from hand to hand or in the Lab.

Micheli of course had NOTHING to do with the either trials of Amanda and Raffaele. He basically took the path of least resistance in the fast track trial of Rudy Guede as neither the prosecutors or the defense attorneys wanted to eliminate the possibility of others being involved.

And the footprint in Luminol was not determined to be blood as no confirmatory tests were made and TMB came up negative. The fact that you don't think that rust is not believable shows just how ignorant you are. Luminol reacts to the IRON in blood and rust in fact, has a much higher concentration of iron than blood does, so I fail to see how the barefoot Luminol prints..none of which were in Meredith's bedroom offer anything probative.

 

[Bill Williams]

I defer to the expert who Chris interviewed and who made a positive ID for Sollecito on the clasp, Straight taught no nonsense about dusty floor DNA which was kicked about. Other than planting you have failed to produce a reasonable alternative to Sollecito lifting Meredith. The staging part in her room comes into play with why would Guede do that and leave his hand print and other evidence. Micheli felt a sexual assualt was emphasized with the clothing removal. There was evidence of Sollecito in her room which does implicate Amanda. The foot print of Amanda's which revealing blood with luminal means she was in the room as well.The print blood tranfer from the bathmat shuffle is not believable. Nor is a barefoot juice or rust combo print.

You do not understand how luminol is used, then. Fortunately all the fact finding judges did, because neither Massei nor Hellmann agreed with you.

Also by referencing Micheli you have revealed your attitude to fact finding. You believe that the accused has no right of reply. Without ANY forensics in Micheli exercise the finction of putting them over for trial, so that these very things COULD be found out. And at that trial, they were found as unfactual.

That you reference Micheli is positively bizarre.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

old ground with respect to the clasp

No one has come up with a plausible explanation for how the healthy sample of Sollecito's DNA landed on the clasp. Anne B going on about how it was kicked and kicked was a joke, I believe the back of the bra was used to lift Meredith and the metal hook was the point of contact that dug into Sollecito's finger.

Briars,

The amount of Sollecito's putative DNA was on the borderline of being low template, hardly a healthy amount. And a number of us have offered several rationales, such as from gloves on the door to the clasp, or from the towels that Guede brought in. I also quoted from an FBI study that showed that DNA that was not from the wearer's immediate family showed up in some profiles. We have covered this ground before.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

What Dr. Balding actually said

Yup, that pretty much eliminates contamination. I defer to the expert who Chris interviewed and who made a positive ID for Sollecito on the clasp, Straight taught no nonsense about dusty floor DNA which was kicked about. Other than planting you have failed to produce a reasonable alternative to Sollecito lifting Meredith. The staging part in her room comes into play with why would Guede do that and leave his hand print and other evidence. Micheli felt a sexual assualt was emphasized with the clothing removal. There was evidence of Sollecito in her room which does implicate Amanda. The foot print of Amanda's which revealing blood with luminal means she was in the room as well.The print blood tranfer from the bathmat shuffle is not believable. Nor is a barefoot juice or rust combo print.

Dr. Balding made a point of saying in his paper that he was not ruling out contamination.