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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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Which the bunny lovers would say is because she staged the break-in with the burglary gone bad as the scenario created.



Okay, fine, but they wouldn't have known that until after the ICSI left, correct?

At least if consistent with them not asking about the murder night from the beginning as I have maintained.
:jaw-dropp As you have maintained? LOL. Stop stealing my best ideas. You're kidding no one.

Actually even though they were testing the kids alibi from early on, asking about what they wore would have tipped the kids off to being suspects.

I doubt they knew what they wore until later. Why didn't they take all her clothes and test them as she, the wily devil, would have left innocent clothes out while putting the blood splattered clothes in a garbage can down the street.

Has anyone ever seen any reporting or anything that indicates the police went through all the garbage cans and asked residents to check their cans for disposed evidence?
There were all sorts of innocent ways of finding out what she was wearing without alerting her to their suspicions: 'we need to know what was in your room last night since we might need to test items for forensic evidence. Here - what about these clothes on your bed?' For example.
 
I'm pretty sure that the ICSI didn't collect all or most of the clothes lying around in Filomena's or Laura's room either on the 2nd and 3rd. The ISCI didn't apparently look at the roommates as suspects during the time they were collecting evidence.

I don't remember how they would have known that those were the clothes Amanda had been wearing the murder night but will be happy to be informed.
As it turned out there wasn't anything to find on them so the ISCI's instincts seemed to be correct.
One of Massei's points about why to believe Stefanoni's work on the knife is that if they were faking the evidence she could have put enough on to make the test work using normal testing and in enough abundance to allow multiple tests. I don't think that Stefanoni faked the results but rather pushed every limit including the interpretation. If they wanted to frame the kids they could have just done it.

This leads to question as to why they didn't drop just a little of Meredith's blood on Amanda's clothes left on the bed.

1. Their instincts may have been right in the first couple of days after the murder, but remember within a week they have Amanda locked up as a suspect in the murder. Wouldn't you think that the prudent thing to do would be to collect all of her clothes at that time and not wait for 5 months? Remember they left Meredith's bloody sweatshirt in a pile of clothes until it got moldy and unusable.

2.Do you really think they have liquid samples of Meredith's blood 5 months later to just drop blood on Amanda's clothes? But your point is noted. I don't believe there was a widespread Perugian conspiracy to plant evidence against Amanda, I mean if you are going to plant evidence, you would think it would be a lot more conclusive than this. Widespread conspiracies are rare, unless there are real financial incentives for all those involved which is doubtful. No, I doubt there was that kind of conspiracy. Just a lot of people that were overly zealous and incompetent trying to save face.

The bra clasp and the show that was made for that one specific piece of evidence drives me crazy. There is something very suspicious about it's collection going well beyond the 46 day delay.
 
Actually even though they were testing the kids alibi from early on, asking about what they wore would have tipped the kids off to being suspects.

I doubt they knew what they wore until later. Why didn't they take all her clothes and test them as she, the wily devil, would have left innocent clothes out while putting the blood splattered clothes in a garbage can down the street.

Has anyone ever seen any reporting or anything that indicates the police went through all the garbage cans and asked residents to check their cans for disposed evidence?

About a week ago one of my neighbors (about a block away) was arrested for murdering his wife. There were reports that he was a suspect or a person of interest since the day of the murder. The murder happened about 4 months ago. BTW, I probably don't have a confirmable alibi for the night of the murder since I live alone. I don't know if the police looked through my trash can. I doubt it. The police never spoke to me either, not that I could have told them anything,
 
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I'm pretty sure that the ICSI didn't collect all or most of the clothes lying around in Filomena's or Laura's room either on the 2nd and 3rd. The ISCI didn't apparently look at the roommates as suspects during the time they were collecting evidence.

I don't remember how they would have known that those were the clothes Amanda had been wearing the murder night but will be happy to be informed.

As it turned out there wasn't anything to find on them so the ISCI's instincts seemed to be correct.

One of Massei's points about why to believe Stefanoni's work on the knife is that if they were faking the evidence she could have put enough on to make the test work using normal testing and in enough abundance to allow multiple tests. I don't think that Stefanoni faked the results but rather pushed every limit including the interpretation. If they wanted to frame the kids they could have just done it.

This leads to question as to why they didn't drop just a little of Meredith's blood on Amanda's clothes left on the bed.

Truly this is brilliant analysis. I'm not joshing you.

When suspicions finally coalesced around the two innocents, the geniuses at PLE were so convinced that "strange behaviour" had solved this crime, together with coerced admissions, that yhey never really thought about gathering no stinkin' evidence.

Besides, as your favourite crime writer Grinder, John Follain, reported, Mignini grew frustrates that the kids fairly quickly recovered their senses and an obsessive commitment to the truth. Against all reason!

So its 6 weeks later as well as 4 months later (!) that they even bother with actual evidence. No wonder there'd been no real forensic examination of even the breakin, real or staged.
 
:jaw-dropp As you have maintained? LOL. Stop stealing my best ideas. You're kidding no one.

It was early. I meant as YOU maintained. I'm sure they did ask about what they did that night from near the beginning but asking about what she wore would be a tip-off.

There were all sorts of innocent ways of finding out what she was wearing without alerting her to their suspicions: 'we need to know what was in your room last night since we might need to test items for forensic evidence. Here - what about these clothes on your bed?' For example.

Well she didn't mention it in the email home and since you haven't quoted it yet I bet she didn't mention it in her book. She was specific in the email to mention being asked about the Vaseline.
 
1. Their instincts may have been right in the first couple of days after the murder, but remember within a week they have Amanda locked up as a suspect in the murder. Wouldn't you think that the prudent thing to do would be to collect all of her clothes at that time and not wait for 5 months? Remember they left Meredith's bloody sweatshirt in a pile of clothes until it got moldy and unusable.

Well once Amanda had representation perhaps they couldn't grab her stuff without the defense observing. I'm sure that for a few days after arrest they were confident they would find plenty of evidence of Amanda on the stuff they had already removed.

2.Do you really think they have liquid samples of Meredith's blood 5 months later to just drop blood on Amanda's clothes? But your point is noted. I don't believe there was a widespread Perugian conspiracy to plant evidence against Amanda, I mean if you are going to plant evidence, you would think it would be a lot more conclusive than this. Widespread conspiracies are rare, unless there are real financial incentives for all those involved which is doubtful. No, I doubt there was that kind of conspiracy. Just a lot of people that were overly zealous and incompetent trying to save face.

Well someone among us thinks they were framing her from no later than the fifth. Yes, I think they had her blood available wet and dry. Hell, they could have taken the bloody sweatshirt you mention and with or without water put a sample on Amanda's clothes. The coroner took blood samples and they were put into several vials.

The bra clasp and the show that was made for that one specific piece of evidence drives me crazy. There is something very suspicious about it's collection going well beyond the 46 day delay.

Yes it wouldn't pass in a movie script, the only piece of evidence found 46 days later after being lost under the rug. It is tainted for sure, but the show has been explained as being done for the defense attorneys watching live - if that's not true I'd welcome the correction.
 
Truly this is brilliant analysis. I'm not joshing you.

When suspicions finally coalesced around the two innocents, the geniuses at PLE were so convinced that "strange behaviour" had solved this crime, together with coerced admissions, that yhey never really thought about gathering no stinkin' evidence.

Besides, as your favourite crime writer Grinder, John Follain, reported, Mignini grew frustrates that the kids fairly quickly recovered their senses and an obsessive commitment to the truth. Against all reason!

So its 6 weeks later as well as 4 months later (!) that they even bother with actual evidence. No wonder there'd been no real forensic examination of even the breakin, real or staged.

Thank you.

I do think I agree with you that as time went by they became more frustrated that they could find a smoking gun or even a gun. I'm sure they had hoped for more DNA etc. though I can't agree that they didn't bother with "actual evidence" until 6 weeks or 4 months later.

If there really is evidence that blood was found in F's room's windows and that a hair was found and anything else then the defense should make a big deal of it in this coming appeal.

I reiterate that I think Amanda should claim poverty and have the Italians pay for their lawyers and use fund raising to pay experts etc.

This coming trial should be viewed as the basis for fighting extradition. They should attempt to enter as much as possible into the record and then when denied bring that to the US as proof of the unfair treatment. Get reports from DNA scientists from around the world and attempt to enter them into the record. Attempt to enter the break-in reconstruction. Request all the videos from the murder night. Demonstrate how the Italians aren't truly allowing them to show their lack of guilt.
 
I've always thought that The Hickey photo,
the 1 that Dan O' reposted a few days ago, did look a bit odd:
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img10/474/fywv.jpg[/qimg]

That is because the shot does not give the complete picture,
as you can see below, which shows its location:
[qimg]http://imageshack.us/a/img839/5228/91yh.jpg[/qimg]


The image I posted is incomplete because it was presented as a comparison to the official image which you can find a copy here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=29469077&postcount=6272

The original of my image can be found here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hickey&defid=1463439

The original is clearly timestamped March 2005, well before the current case to combat claims of staging. The fact that many have confused the two images should be proof enough that the mark on Amanda is consistent with a hickey.
 
Well once Amanda had representation perhaps they couldn't grab her stuff without the defense observing. I'm sure that for a few days after arrest they were confident they would find plenty of evidence of Amanda on the stuff they had already removed.
C'mon, they should have been collecting all of that on the day they arrested Amanda. I don't think she actually had representation until a couple of days later. She is a prime suspect in the murder and they don't collect her clothes? But then again, I'm not really sure she was their suspect at that time..they were so scoped locked on Patrick Lumumba. hmmmmm

Still they could and should have collected her clothes no later than their release of PL.

Well someone among us thinks they were framing her from no later than the fifth. Yes, I think they had her blood available wet and dry. Hell, they could have taken the bloody sweatshirt you mention and with or without water put a sample on Amanda's clothes. The coroner took blood samples and they were put into several vials.
You're saying "they" To plant evidence doesn't require that everyone is involved, in fact the wider the conspiracy, the chance at getting caught grows exponentially. Really, it only takes one person. One overzealous person who probably for no other reason than being convinced that A&R are guilty and not wanting to see them get away with murder. You could easily have multiple people convinced in their duty to convict the guilty separately
framing Amanda without the others knowledge.

I don't for one minute believe that there was a "spoken" conspiracy to "get" Amanda and Raffaele. It almost certainly doesn't work that way. It's more like, we know they did this and it is our responsibility to make sure this "American Whore" and her little pet Italian boy doesn't get away with murder. So find the evidence men/women!!!

Yes it wouldn't pass in a movie script, the only piece of evidence found 46 days later after being lost under the rug. It is tainted for sure, but the show has been explained as being done for the defense attorneys watching live - if that's not true I'd welcome the correction.

Did they perform the same show on every piece of evidence they collected that day? I don't think they did. Why such a show for specifically this piece of evidence??
 
It was early. I meant as YOU maintained. I'm sure they did ask about what they did that night from near the beginning but asking about what she wore would be a tip-off.
Not if they were smart, and they could have covered where they spent the evening with just one or two questions,



Well she didn't mention it in the email home and since you haven't quoted it yet I bet she didn't mention it in her book. She was specific in the email to mention being asked about the Vaseline.
If there were a way of settling the bet I'd wager she never gave what she was wearing a moment's thought. The murder was nothing to do with her. Her email gives a good impression of where the focus of her thoughts lay.
 
I am certain they collected the bra clasp on the first pass and then took it back to the cottage for its screen test in December. Both Massei and the Supreme Court describe where the clasp was originally located -- under the cushion that was under Meredith. Obviously they had either a photo of it in its original location, or they had it catalogued in a list.


They had photographs and video of the clasps presumed 1st discovery in the early hours of November 3 shortly after Meredith's body had been removed from the cottage. This clip of the crime scene video had been widely distributed even before the full video became available.

From my Crime Scene Video index catalog:
02:24:41 .. 02:24:47 - Bra clasp on floor SexLiesMurder#Part 4 9:22, DateLine Trial#Part 3 0:18, DateLine Trial#Part 4 2:45
​


It would not have taken them six weeks to realize it was missing from the items they had collected from the room -- they would have been checking and cross-checking that stuff constantly in the first couple weeks after the crime. If one of the numbered pieces of evidence were missing, they would have gone back for it right away. There is no reason anyway to think they would not have bagged a numbered, photographed piece of evidence -- it's ridiculous.


The clasp itself was never assigned an evidence number until it was collected in December. I believe one of the investigators explained that it wasn't assigned a number because the bra itself already had a number. The source of that comment needs to be tracked down.

In another comment, it was explained that at the time the clasp had been discovered, the evidence bags and markers had already been taken away so there was no way to collect it. I think the keystone cops have been solidly kicked into second place.


They picked up a couple of other pieces of evidence that day in December, but did they film themselves doing it?


There was the blood sample from the wall (evidence label "W"), the one where they dropped the swab and picked it up to continue swabbing. They collected the brown purse that had been on Meredith's bed (evidence label "X") which they restaged on the bed, or what remained of the bed since the mattress was on the couch in the living room. And that pair of socks of Amanda's with the bears and hearts that I posted earlier which we're probably collected because the bottoms were showing red where the yarn was fading from wear.
 
C'mon, they should have been collecting all of that on the day they arrested Amanda.

They never collected all her things. Just because clothes were on the bed didn't make them necessary to collect. Did they end up testing all of her clothes?

Still they could and should have collected her clothes no later than their release of PL.

All her clothes? All of her shoes? Her hats?

You're saying "they" To plant evidence doesn't require that everyone is involved, in fact the wider the conspiracy, the chance at getting caught grows exponentially. Really, it only takes one person. One overzealous person who probably for no other reason than being convinced that A&R are guilty and not wanting to see them get away with murder. You could easily have multiple people convinced in their duty to convict the guilty separately
framing Amanda without the others knowledge.

You questioned whether they had her blood and I said they did, as in the PLE.

don't for one minute believe that there was a "spoken" conspiracy to "get" Amanda and Raffaele. It almost certainly doesn't work that way. It's more like, we know they did this and it is our responsibility to make sure this "American Whore" and her little pet Italian boy doesn't get away with murder. So find the evidence men/women!!!

Okay and you are arguing what point?

Did they perform the same show on every piece of evidence they collected that day? I don't think they did. Why such a show for specifically this piece of evidence??

Anglo addressed the video up-thread and said they did make some show but he can chime in and give the link to the video and you can look for yourself. Anglo helloooooo.

Not if they were smart, and they could have covered where they spent the evening with just one or two questions,

Ha ha, not if they were smart...tricky, very tricky.


If there were a way of settling the bet I'd wager she never gave what she was wearing a moment's thought. The murder was nothing to do with her. Her email gives a good impression of where the focus of her thoughts lay.

Yacht look like it is sold :(. The point was that the police hadn't asked her or she would have mentioned it like the Vaseline. I contend that an innocent Amanda asked about detail like what she wore would have mentioned it

Further had they quizzed her that detail she would have figured out they were thinking she had something to do with the murder.
 
Truly this is brilliant analysis. I'm not joshing you.

When suspicions finally coalesced around the two innocents, the geniuses at PLE were so convinced that "strange behaviour" had solved this crime, together with coerced admissions, that yhey never really thought about gathering no stinkin' evidence.

They realized the clothing was a huge problem. Multiple witnesses saw Amanda wearing it on Nov. 1. It would have been covered with blood if she had participated in the murder, in which case she wouldn't have left it strewn across her bed.

Their "solution" was to tell the media it was missing.
 
From my knowledge they didn't take DNA swabs from them either.

I agree with you that Filomena might make a better suspect. And I think she lawyered up pretty much immediately but she's only a better suspect by a hair. We all know that Rudy committed this crime. Maybe he had a friend involved which I seriously doubt was Filomena.

But your point is well taken. All of Italy is second guessing all of Amanda's behavior, and taking everyone else's behavior at face value.


Has there ever been an accounting of the keys to the cottage? One of claims against Amanda was that she could have given Rudy the key to let himself in. Clearly, if anyone had a spare key to the cottage it would be one of the italian girls. They could have loaned the spare key to Rudy with instructions to leave it on the kitchen table when he was done. Who's key do we see on the kitchen table in the crime scene photos?
 
snip
Anglo addressed the video up-thread and said they did make some show but he can chime in and give the link to the video and you can look for yourself. Anglo helloooooo.
Sorry, I don't have the link at my fingertips but it's over at IIP and there is no excuse for not watching it. It's only 13 hours long :D


Ha ha, not if they were smart...tricky, very tricky.
The cops have a sort of brain, like a rat's. They can't solve quadratic equations but they can set traps, falling into about half of them themselves, on average.


Yacht look like it is sold :(. The point was that the police hadn't asked her or she would have mentioned it like the Vaseline. I contend that an innocent Amanda asked about detail like what she wore would have mentioned it
This is a corax (see Galati). A guilty Amanda would have thought what an innocent Amanda would do and do that.

Further had they quizzed her that detail she would have figured out they were thinking she had something to do with the murder.
Depends how they go about it. See rat-brain above.
 
They never collected all her things. Just because clothes were on the bed didn't make them necessary to collect. Did they end up testing all of her clothes?
I disagree. I think they should have collected ALL OF HER CLOTHES if she is a suspect. That doesn't mean that every piece of clothes is subjected to forensic testing. But they all are subjected to examination, some of which might be tested and then it is all returned to Amanda or her parents or kept as evidence as necessary..

You questioned whether they had her blood and I said they did, as in the PLE.
I was saying the "individual they" as "opposed to the collective they"


ACbyTesla said:
I don't for one minute believe that there was a "spoken" conspiracy to "get" Amanda and Raffaele. It almost certainly doesn't work that way. It's more like, we know they did this and it is our responsibility to make sure this "American Whore" and her little pet Italian boy doesn't get away with murder. So find the evidence men/women!!!
Okay and you are arguing what point?
That "they" could have been framing Amanda without there being a conspiracy.
 
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It would be interesting to see the transcript, but I don't expect it to resolve this controversy.

How could this fail to resolve the controversy?
If the statements were correctly reported by the press (and they obviously were) this implies C&V declared they had obtained all what they requested and that the cooperation was unfettered.
Now, if you maintain that such declaration won't solve the controversy, then you imply that C&V's declaration was false. So you imply that C&V are witnesses who make false declarations in court. If you imply so, you blow away any possible credibility from them.
So either they are not credible and you should toss their report and everything else they claimed, or they did obtein all what they had requested.

I have correspondence showing that C&V requested the EDFs before May 2011. Leila has posted (on IIP) an excerpt from the June 2011 transcript in which they claimed not to have the negative controls, which would have been part of the EDFs.

This does not change the fact that - subsequently to their correspondence - they declared they obtained all files that they requested.
Nobody here prevents you from posting the full correspondence that you have - but certainly as for the official trial documents, what they declared is what is official. And there is nothing that goes against such claim in their report; cause you know they never mention the lack of raw data files nor any request for raw data files.

That does not reconcile with a blanket endorsement of Stefanoni's cooperation

That's what they declared, and it's quite difficult to make it go away.

Moreover, I point out that - apart from the complete "correspondence" which you assert you have, while you don't disclose it (and I bet you wil not disclose a complete correspondence) - you and the colpevolisti are not able to cite any formal instance to have such files submitted by the defence to a court. Ghirga and Dalla Vedova wrote several instances to the Supreme Court during the course of the trial, all about other topics. Is there a request by Bongiorno or Ghirga on this topic to the Supreme Court? Is there a request to Hellmann? A request to Micheli, or to Ricciarelli?

And of course, as Halides has said, a number of other scientists have sought this data, and continue to be most interested in obtaining it.

This has no bearing with the case. I might search an ancient Papa Smurf collection piece, everyone can "search" or wish to have something; but things like evidence from an ongoing trial can be requested only by legal representatives involved in the trial.

If the high court had disposed of the case, their interest might be expected to wane. But, with the prospect of another appeal that may be followed by an extradition proceeding, we can be sure their interest will persevere.

Those are speculations founded on a void, als long as there is just no evidence any request was ever submitted.

They won't be swayed by enthusiastic claims that Italian police labs are above reproach, that forensic DNA contamination is less likely than a meteor strike.

I am not swayed by proclaims about laboratories whitholding evidence or denying things or lying, when such wild claims are just unfounded, and obviously, plainly contradicting the defence's actual actions.
 
Mach maybe you missed this:

Mach I don't think you have explained what Massei was doing when he wrote the following:



Why did he discuss the kids (short way of saying Amanda and Raf) in this way. Isn't this summing up their characters?

What exactly is Article 133 paragraph 2 number 2 of the Criminal Code?

How does this differ from Bill's contentions?

I already answered your last 3 questions.

A short explanation for what Massei is doing: he is writing a paragraph to find reasons for mitigations as for a law article.
Not summing up their charachters. But summing up reasons for mitigations.

In every sentence the judge is expected to seek reasons for mitigation and quantification of penalty, and to write a paragraph about it.

Bill Williams mistakes this for a comprehensive summary of the defendant's psychological profiles.
This is contention absurd. Here this is just a paragraph about penalty quantification under discretiona power of the judge under art. 134.
There is simply no rational ground to claim there is a finding that the defendatns are psychopatologically normal - or that they have any psychological personality quality or psychiatric or medical condition or lack there of, at all.

I saw defendants who got the same kind of "positive" assessment about their profiles in a paragraph, and they were psychologically disturbed (some even found to be so).
 
Does Machiavelli miss the point that C&V held a meating in which several defense consultants were present in which it was suggested, I believe unanimously, that the electronic files should be requested. What exactly was requested by C&V? Why was it necessary for C&V to request suplimental information concerning the peak heights? Did Hellmann in fact email Patrizia Stefanoni requesting that she comply with C&V's requests?
 
I already answered your last 3 questions.

A short explanation for what Massei is doing: he is writing a paragraph to find reasons for mitigations as for a law article.
Not summing up their charachters. But summing up reasons for mitigations.

In every sentence the judge is expected to seek reasons for mitigation and quantification of penalty, and to write a paragraph about it.

Bill Williams mistakes this for a comprehensive summary of the defendant's psychological profiles. This is contention absurd. Here this is just a paragraph about penalty quantification under discretiona power of the judge under art. 134.
There is simply no rational ground to claim there is a finding that the defendatns are psychopatologically normal - or that they have any psychological personality quality or psychiatric or medical condition or lack there of, at all.

I saw defendants who got the same kind of "positive" assessment about their profiles in a paragraph, and they were psychologically disturbed (some even found to be so).

Machiavelli - this is simply a repeat of your logic that you can tell the level of sleep deprivation that Amanda Knox had on the late evening of Nov 5, simply by reading her letters.

Think, Machiavelli, think. Of course it is in the section on mitigating factors. That's the whole point. Mr. Mignini attempted to paint the two students as first Satanic cultists, then sex-crazed sex-gamers, then vindictive lesson-teaching murderers, then the worse of all Mignini's theories - that they were so maladjusted that they killed for no reason at all.

All of those theories go to mitigation, meaning that in Mignini's opinion he thought there should be none, and that they should have got life in jail, with long periods of solitary confinement.

Instead, after hearing ALL the pseudo evidence that Mignini entered as evidence, the trier of fact, Massei and the other judge and the six lay judges, even in the conviction court, found mitigating factors based on the fact that Knox and Sollecito were normal people, with no psychopathology at all.

Most notably, the Massei court rejected the theories of the prosecution, as ever changing as they were, all to speak against there being mitigating factors. Based on what Massei called a chance event, where the two students made one, uncharacteristic and only by chance, "choice for evil" as Massei put it, so these are the reasons why Massei found mitigating factors to be operative in this case.

Your point is simply absurd. But then your assessment of sleep deprivation was equally absurd. And then again, there's my favourite, that you said that the two students were suspected from the beginning, but were not suspects at interrogation, therefore they didn't need to be accorded rights. Then there was the time you said innocent until proven guilty was only a procedural rule. How many absurd things are you going to claim?

Where I disagree with Massei is in his assessment that the two students were even there on the night of Nov 1, not the mitigation.

Once again, Machiavelli, you are trying to defend the undefendable. You are embarrassing yourself.
 
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