Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Bill Williams]

Don't you get it Bill? Machiavelli is employing a long used argumentative technique. It isn't one that is taught in any debating class, but it has been effective on the uneducated, corrupt and ignorant throughout history.

<...... sinister deletia .......>
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance.....baffle them with bull ◊◊◊◊!!!!!

Right Machiavelli?? Goebbels?? Mussolini?? Mignini?? Whatever your name is.

I always get fooled by Machiavelli.... just like the old boss.

 

[Mary_H]

Wow. Let me get this straight. The prosecution tries to enter evidence at trial that Knox and Sollecito have pathological personality traits which would lead to murder - traits which include the proclivity to engage in sex-games with unwilling partners, and/or escalate normal household tensions (not keeping the bathroom toilet clean, that sort of thing).....

...... and Massei not only makes no mention of psychopathology, Massei goes out of his way to state the exact opposite! And this is NOT Massei giving an assessment about personality?<snip>

Look, Bill, the fact that the judge writes about something does not make it a reality. In Micheli's motivations for Rudy's trial, he rejected the prosecution's claims of ritualism, and we all know Mignini never said anything about ritualism.

 

[acbytesla]

I always get fooled by Machiavelli.... just like the old boss.

I give him credit Bill. His line of manure is thoughtful and literate, but still manure. His denial of what Massei said about the backgrounds and character of Amanda and Raffaele is absurd.

I would respect Machiavelli more if he would just say that A & Rs personal history and known characters is irrelevant and in truth the court has no way of knowing how dark the minds of the defendants might be.

But that isn't what Mach says, he denies Massei's written word in total. I can't respect that. That is flat out lying and spreading disinformation.

I don't argue with Machiavelli about Italian law as I am at a great disadvantage not being as well as not speaking Italian. I have a great feeling that he is BSsing us on that as well, considering how he seems to have double standards on it's application. But after reading Galati's appeal and the ISC motivation it seems as if the whole Italian judicial system is a quagmire of double standards and exceptions that prevent a defendant from getting a fair trial so maybe he is right about that.

I feel sorry for the Italian people. All that doublespeak. A two face maze of a justice system does not offer their people fair and honest outcomes. It really is sad.

 

[Bill Williams]

I feel sorry for the Italian people. All that doublespeak. A two face maze of a justice system does not offer their people fair and honest outcomes. It really is sad.

Italy is not unlike other smaller institutions which legislate one thing but do another.

It's not unique to Italy, but in this murder case there is:

1) the application of law
2) the protection of reputations​

Those two things are definitely in conflict here. The only reasonable explanation for someone like Machiavelli to say what he says, in the face of the bad-facts (like Grinder's continual quoting of what Massei actually said, like RoseM's posting of the photo of the exposed balcony lit by a streetlamp, like Mach himself claiming lay-expertise in sleep-sleep deprivation issues where he does a clinical appraisal based on writings!, etc, etc.)

(Like Mach admitting that Knox/Sollecito were suspects from Nov 2 onwards, yet defends them being called to interrogation on Nov 5 and denied lawyers and the right to videotape/transcription of the whole interrogation....)

.... the only reasonable explanation is that Machiavelli is taking the side of protecting reputations.

That's not really as rare as one might think. Pick a country, pick an institution. They all do it. There are rules, then there are unspoken meta-rules. Machiavelli is better at these meta-rules, the unspoken rules that usurps the written law - things like, you never should insult a Public Minister or question their integrity.

If you do, its calunnia for you! Or defamation! Sheesh, they have a written law to use as a weapon to defend the unwritten ones!

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I don't have that specific transcript (May 20.) but I think I can access it.
However, it should be pretty unnecessary to have a transcript when you have credible news reports (like Il Corriere and La Nazione) which are unequivocal and were never denied.

It would be interesting to see the transcript, but I don't expect it to resolve this controversy. I have correspondence showing that C&V requested the EDFs before May 2011. Leila has posted (on IIP) an excerpt from the June 2011 transcript in which they claimed not to have the negative controls, which would have been part of the EDFs.

That does not reconcile with a blanket endorsement of Stefanoni's cooperation.

And of course, as Halides has said, a number of other scientists have sought this data, and continue to be most interested in obtaining it. If the high court had disposed of the case, their interest might be expected to wane. But, with the prospect of another appeal that may be followed by an extradition proceeding, we can be sure their interest will persevere.

They won't be swayed by enthusiastic claims that Italian police labs are above reproach, that forensic DNA contamination is less likely than a meteor strike.

They will want to see the data and judge for themselves.

 

[charlatan]

Why did he discuss the kids (short way of saying Amanda and Raf) in this way. Isn't this summing up their characters?

What exactly is Article 133 paragraph 2 number 2 of the Criminal Code?

How does this differ from Bill's contentions?

Article 133 certainly appears to support Bill's point:

... The judge must take into account also the capacity to commit a crime (5) of the culprit [ 103 , 105 , 108 ; cpp 220 ] inferred from:
1) the motives behind the crime (6) and the character of the offender (7) ;
2) the previous penal and legal systems and, in general, the conduct and life of the offender, prior to the offense (8) ;
3) the conduct simultaneous or subsequent to the offense (9) ;
4) the conditions of life of the individual, family and social life of the offender. ...

The footnotes go into great detail regarding what is meant by the character and conduct of the offender:

(7) The character of the offender is a concept which refers to the various components of the human personality: biological, ethical, psychological. The normative reference, according to some authors, concerns only the profiles of innate personality (returning, however, more properly, the socio-environmental prediction in the art. 133 , c. 2, no. 4). Others point out, in contrast, the dynamic content of the human character, as resulting from the interaction between temperament and environmental factors.

(8) The life and conduct of the offender prior to the offense are significant indicators of its attitude to crime. As made ​​clear that the Supreme Court, "the elements of assessment for the quantum of the penalty to be imposed can be drawn freely from pipelines and situations other than those strictly related to the crime." Apart from the general manifestations of deviance (eg, alcoholism), are relevant here: a) legal precedents (eg, a disqualification order or disqualification; bankruptcy declarations etc.), B) previous criminal record (eg previous convictions, is controversial, however, the evaluability of acquittals for their amnesty).

 

[acbytesla]

Italy is not unlike other smaller institutions which legislate one thing but do another. It's not unique to Italy, but in this murder case there is:

1) the application of law
2) the protection of reputations​

Those two things are definitely in conflict here. The only reasonable explanation for someone like Machiavelli to say what he says, in the face of the bad-facts (like Grinder's continual quoting of what Massei actually said, like RoseM's posting of the photo of the exposed balcony lit by a streetlamp, like Mach himself claiming lay-expertise in sleep-sleep deprivation issues where he does a clinical appraisal based on writings!, etc, etc.)

(Like Mach admitting that Knox/Sollecito were suspects from Nov 2 onwards, yet defends them being called to interrogation on Nov 5 and denied lawyers and the right to videotape/transcription of the whole interrogation....)

.... the only reasonable explanation is that Machiavelli is taking the side of protecting reputations.

That's not really as rare as one might think. Pick a country, pick an institution. They all do it. There are rules, then there are unspoken meta-rules. Machiavelli is better at these meta-rules, the unspoken rules that usurps the written law - things like, you never should insult a Public Minister or question their integrity.

If you do, its calunnia for you! Or defamation! Sheesh, they have a written law to use as a weapon to defend the unwritten ones!

I couldn't agree more. I've seen that happen in the US in lots of jurisdictions as well. Corruption is not unique to Italy.

But there seems to be something structural in Italy's judicial system. I think it is this inquisitorial system of justice. On the surface, it seems like a good idea. But in reality it ends up being grossly unfair. I also thought that the written motivations was a a good thing. Now, not so much although I still haven't made up my mind on that.

This decision using the term osmotic seems like the court is saying that if you combined multiple pieces of bad evidence it somehow equals something. Sort of like a recipe. Like if you somehow combine feces and urine in Perugia, you end up with a dish of Lasagne.

 

[Bill Williams]

This decision using the term osmotic seems like the court is saying that if you combined multiple pieces of bad evidence it somehow equals something. Sort of like a recipe. Like if you somehow combine feces and urine in Perugia, you end up with a dish of Lasagne.

As far as I know, the highlighted part is pure Mignini, and was his justification early on for continuing the absurd case against the two innocents.

Paraphrase alert! "Yes, I know that each piece of evidence when standing alone can be picked apart, but when taken as a whole it amounts to an inescapable conclusion."

 

[Chris_Halkides]

processed data are still processed data

I don't think this answer quite deals with Grinder's enquiry.

It is pretty clear from all discussions and from contributions from those in the know like Charlie that the EDFs have never been seen by the court, the defence or the independent experts. What C-V report is the receipt, first, on 29th April 2011 of a CD-Rom bearing graphs showing peak heights and then on 11th May 2011 of an email attaching graphs showing peak heights and areas. It is crucial to understand though that no digital information was provided, even though the media was digital. That is to say, what they got were like PDFs of the graphs showing certain numbers (peak heights and areas) not the underlying digital data that the interpretative software operates upon.

No doubt, I shall be corrected if wrong. Halides is right that the EDFs never surfaced either at prelim or the first instance trial.

I am virtually certain that Conti and Vecchiotti never received the EDFs. I agree with your comment and your distinction between true EDFs and pdf files that are still just pictures of the electropherograms.
EDT
Grinder originally wrote, "What frustrates me about these conversations is that truth and justice take a back seat to legal technicalities. Why should it be so critical exactly when a request was made? If the trial isn't over why not allow more data and be more sure of the verdict?" Obviously I agree. The more experts that look at the data, the more confident we can be of the conclusions.

 

[codyjuneau]

Not unless they are not required to provide the EDF. With EDF you can determine how and when the document was modified. Plus other things like control runs and dates and times, etc...

You mentioned the Photoshop program and that is a good analogy for the EDF. What Stefanoni is asking us to believe in is what our eyes are showing us...but what we could be seeing is not a real picture like with a Photoshop of Migninis head on a jackasses body. But Im refusing to provide you with anything but that one pic I printed out.

You could get to the truth if I provide you with the electronic file of the Photoshop program...but I see no reason to do that and the Italian court seems content to make a case based on the Mignini headed jackass...(probably a confusing example since....oh well)

.
Makes perfect sense to me Randy. As a matter of fact, it seems that a lot of the judiciary want to hitch their wagon to that Mignini headed jackass. I suspect they will rue that decision.
.

 

[acbytesla]

There should be a term for this kind of prosecutorial and judicial psychosis. This is so wrong on so many levels. I can't tell you how bad I feel for Amanda and Raffaele. What a nightmare! It's like Rudy might as well have killed Amanda and Raffaele as well for all the damage his crime has done.

But in truth, the crime and damage to Amanda and Raffaele was done by the Italian people.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Rudy's choices

There should be a term for this kind of prosecutorial and judicial psychosis. This is so wrong on so many levels. I can't tell you how bad I feel for Amanda and Raffaele. What a nightmare! It's like Rudy might as well have killed Amanda and Raffaele as well for all the damage his crime has done.

But in truth, the crime and damage to Amanda and Raffaele was done by the Italian people.

Rudy could have owned up to his crimes; instead, he has chosen to lie. In so doing, he has helped himself to a shorter prison term and hurt two innocent people. The Italian people need to step up to the plate and demand some reforms, not sit idly by as the ISC makes a hash of this case. MOO.

 

[acbytesla]

Rudy could have owned up to his crimes; instead, he has chosen to lie. In so doing, he has helped himself to a shorter prison term and hurt two innocent people. The Italian people need to step up to the plate and demand some reforms, not sit idly by as the ISC makes a hash of this case. MOO.

You can hardly expect more from Rudy or any criminal for that matter. He saw an opportunity to substantially reduce his time behind bars. By killing Meredith, Rudy already demonstrated his respect for the law or humanity for others. You would expect him to do what his best for himself regardless of how that might effect others.

I don't really blame Rudy for that. I blame the Italian system the corrupt Italian officials and the people if Italy for allowing that to happen.

 

[MDDVS]

I couldn't agree more. I've seen that happen in the US in lots of jurisdictions as well. Corruption is not unique to Italy.

But there seems to be something structural in Italy's judicial system. I think it is this inquisitorial system of justice. On the surface, it seems like a good idea. But in reality it ends up being grossly unfair. I also thought that the written motivations was a a good thing. Now, not so much although I still haven't made up my mind on that.

This decision using the term osmotic seems like the court is saying that if you combined multiple pieces of bad evidence it somehow equals something. Sort of like a recipe. Like if you somehow combine feces and urine in Perugia, you end up with a dish of Lasagne.

Hello, I'd like to comment a bit on this. It is true that there is a stuctural problem in Italy's judicial system but I think that it's not exactly with the use of a inquisitorial system. It is well known that there is a problem with excessive independency/lack of accountability of the judicial branch. It's not exactly strange that this creates the conditions for abuse of power, corruption and institutional bias, as the role of the intitution becomes self-preservation and aggrandizement.

Another problem that I suspect exists as well, is an excessive influence of traditionalist currents of thought, and maybe a general despise for empirical based knowledge. All of this is related, in my opinion, to the philosophical roots of catholic southern european though, which has its most recognizable form in France.

This is why you get this discourse where preference is given to form over substance and a need to obfuscate instead of clarify. Hence the use of meaningless words like "osmotic" that are used just to make the text look more "intelligent".

 

[RWVBWL]

Finally found, 4 months later...

Once again, Machiavelli, my question was, "why did the PLE not collect and examine Knox's clothes?"<snip>

No, I do not have to explain what the clothes would confirm or deny.... no wonder you have no sense in this case.

Did the PLE act this way in the collection of the knife at Raffaele's apartment?
Did the PLE act this way in the swabbing for DNA in the small bathroom?

You are being purposely obtuse, Machiavelli and I will leave it up to readers here to make up their own minds about this. The fact is there was potential evidence sitting on Knox's bed for weeks.Meredith's jacket also lay on the floor and then suddenly six weeks pater was found in the clothes hamper.

The bra-clasp lay on the floor for weeks to be found some feet from where it had been photographed on Nov 2.

The reasonable person would conclude that this is the very definiton of bungling the crime scene. And you are showing your colours by defending the practise.
<snip>

So, were Amanda's clothes collected? If so, when?

Hi Bill Williams + MDDVS,
I found this a moment ago,
written+posted from Perugia, Italy some 4 months after Miss Kercher was murdered:

Monday, March 17, 2008
Case Filed

Last Friday there was a get-together at the house of horrors.
All of the sudden the lawyers got a call from the police and had to go there. Some things had to be seized, which is why the presence of the parties was necessary.
Among the items seized: Meredith's purse, Meredith's guitar, Amanda's guitar, the 2 Harry Potter books, a hair-dryer, a little pot of vaseline, a sweatshirt, etc. It seems that all of this seized stuff will be tested in light of some clues provided by a witness.

The purse was not the leather one we see on the bed but a cloth purse with Meredith's i-pod and make-up kit still inside. It seems that it was blood stained. Everything will be analyzed. Blood, fingerprints, more hair, etc.

The description given by police of the sweatshirt corresponds to the one Amanda was wearing the night of the crime, which police initially said had disappeared. So we learned that that sweatshirt was inside the house after all.

Today, then, a very important element against Amanda disappears: she never got rid of that sweatshirt, it seems.
So far, no scientific elements have emerged placing Amanda in the room, and even the supposed concealment of the sweatshirt never occurred.
<snip>

Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20100807000333/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html


Ah, it seems like Amanda's sweatshirt lay on her bed,
not for weeks Bill Williams, but months!


If these folks were working in the private sector,
some of them surely, in my humble opinion, would have been fired!
And some of these cops recieved medals for their great work?

 

[Bill Williams]

Hi Bill Williams + MDDVS,
I found this a moment ago,
written+posted from Perugia, Italy some 4 months after Miss Kercher was murdered:

Monday, March 17, 2008
Case Filed

<....... sinister deletia ......>

Ah, it seems like Amanda's sweatshirt lay on her bed,
not for weeks Bill Williams, but months!


If these folks were working in the private sector,
some of them surely, in my humble opinion, would have been fired!
And some of these cops recieved medals for their great work?

I just know what Machiavelli is going to say! So it is Mach's turn to answer if this is true or not. No wonder he wanted to divert the question!

 

[acbytesla]

Hi Bill Williams + MDDVS,
I found this a moment ago,
written+posted from Perugia, Italy some 4 months after Miss Kercher was murdered:

Monday, March 17, 2008
Case Filed



Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20100807000333/http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html


Ah, it seems like Amanda's sweatshirt lay on her bed,
not for weeks Bill Williams, but months!


If these folks were working in the private sector,
some of them surely, in my humble opinion, would have been fired!
And some of these cops recieved medals for their great work?

UNBELIEVABLE!!!! From my perspective that makes the bra clasp even more suspect. These so called scientific police aren't what I would call scientists

How could they leave the clothes of the primary suspect for months laying on her bed?????? TRULY THE PERUGIAN AUTHORITIES ARE MORONS!!!!! I expect people to make mistakes in their jobs. But that is total stupidity??

 

[Bill Williams]

UNBELIEVABLE!!!! From my perspective that makes the bra clasp even more suspect. These so called scientific police aren't what I would call scientists

How could they leave the clothes of the primary suspect for months laying on her bed?????? TRULY THE PERUGIAN AUTHORITIES ARE MORONS!!!!! I expect people to make mistakes in their jobs. But that is total stupidity??

And here they lay for four months..... no wonder Machiavelli was desperate to change the subject.

 

[RandyN]

I couldn't agree more. I've seen that happen in the US in lots of jurisdictions as well. Corruption is not unique to Italy. But there seems to be something structural in Italy's judicial system. I think it is this inquisitorial system of justice. On the surface, it seems like a good idea. But in reality it ends up being grossly unfair. I also thought that the written motivations was a a good thing. Now, not so much although I still haven't made up my mind on that.

This decision using the term osmotic seems like the court is saying that if you combined multiple pieces of bad evidence it somehow equals something. Sort of like a recipe. Like if you somehow combine feces and urine in Perugia, you end up with a dish of Lasagne.

I can agree that corruption is not unique to Italy. But I must add that it appears to be more vertical and endemic in their system. I cant imagine another country attempting to make such a weak case into something. But not just that ...it is the fact that it is so wide spread. Even the Italian SC is willing to break its own laws and mandates that I would guess must be set out in their constitution.

The European Court Of Human Rights looks at complaints of all signature countries which happens to include Italy. They have charged Italy with more violations of failing to provide a fair trial than any other signature country. And the difference is vast. Not a minor variation but a gross and sicking number of violations that outpaces normal countries like Spain and Russia by wide margins. For example in a described time period Italy has 2,012 violations against human rights by it's courts while in the same time period Russia has 350 violations. That is something that should shame Italy into compliance with human rights regulations but which in fact doesn't seem to bother them at all.

There appears to be no will to even investigate the corruption and abuse. The judiciary has been granted all the power and they clearly intend to abuse it without impunity.

Honest judges are leaving in droves ...ashamed to deal inside the system anymore. And no politician is willing to risk the harassment by investigating the police and judiciary. No system of checks and balances.

Absolute power! And we all know the conclusion of being granted that much unregulated power... it can only be absolute corruption. And this is what we are witnessing in this case.

Perhaps corruption is not isolated to Italy...but it seems to be infected from the lowest courts up to and including the SC. And oddly we don't need to go into depth of the evidence or facts...we can see the abuse just in reading the motivation reports.

I thought Massei was the dumbest judge on earth...until I read the ISC report. They are truly candidates for the kings of woo....so bold so as to clearly bypass and ignore their own mandates and laws. And who will stop them? No one it appears.

 

[RandyN]

And here they lay for four months..... no wonder Machiavelli was desperate to change the subject.

[qimg]http://kermit-analysis.wikispaces.com/file/view/amanda_clothes.jpg/309196448/amanda_clothes.jpg[/qimg]​

Room looks spotless compared to Filomenas room. And please save me the staged break-in mess. Who thinks they messed up the desk and table piling it with tons of crap makeup and nail polish just to make her appear to be a slob?

I still think Filomena and her BF make better suspects than RS and AK. Filomena made Knox call police knowing full well she had a bare minimum use of the Italian language. Plus she clearly lied about closing her shutters and glass on top. Then there was that whole removing evidence thing that I think happened after the murder was discovered.

Did the police even take representative footprint samples from the Italian chicks? I don't think so.............