Huh?...the whole chemtrail "community" is based on fringe beliefs.
chemtrails
- Thread starter Bodhi Dharma Zen
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Huh?...the whole chemtrail "community" is based on fringe beliefs.
I heard the poison or mind control chemtrail meme long before geoengineering or weather control memes.
I think the geoengineering meme actually started after 9/11. The data on insolation in the presence or absence of contrails made a brief blip in the news.
I think the geoengineering meme actually started after 9/11. The data on insolation in the presence or absence of contrails made a brief blip in the news.
+1. Since at least the early 2000s, perhaps well prior to that, people have been talking about mysterious diseases - such as the most probably made-up "Morgellons Syndrome" - that are allegedly caused by "chemtrails" and which are designed by the nefarious powers-that-be to weaken us and to pollute our precious bodily fluids (sorry, damage our immune systems).
HotRodDeluxe
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Well, it would appear that this post caused some butthurt. The quote was from the site owner who has now banned me for an undisclosed rule breach and wouldn't answer my enquiry as to why.
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I'm happy to say I've never heard it from an otherwise rational adult in real life.
Those who I have heard it from have always had other fringe beliefs as well.
OTOH, it's probably fairly well known in my social circle I don't suffer woo gladly, and I suppose some otherwise-rational people could have had the good sense not to bring it up with me.
Mercurial Artism
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I was speaking with my dad today, when he asked me what I thought about chemtrails. I didn't get too many words out, as I have trouble formulating verbal responses during real-time communication, but I eventually conveyed that I had researched it a few years ago and thought it was nonsense.
As it turns out, he believed there was something to it, which floored me. I mean, my dad has had some wooy beliefs over the years so it wasn't as though it were completely uncharacteristic, but he is very intelligent and has actually changed his mind about long-held (over 20 years) beliefs, for instance that some of his memories he believed were of alien/demon/whatever encounters were probably sleep paralysis. It's not like he's a nut who's impervious to reason, and he just started thinking there is some validity to it recently. But he never studied science past high school and probably only retains up to junior high level math and science, and despite being intellectually gifted, his strengths are more in reading, writing, and fact memorization, and he didn't go to college (like me, he's high-functioning autistic, but I've attended a little over a year of college and am independently studying upper-level math and physics).
I'm a physics undergrad, and I have a Vulcanesque commitment to logic and science. So naturally there are disagreements. He endorsed the "they were trying to do something to help the environment but it ended up having negative side effects they want to keep hush hush" version, not the deliberate poisoning version.
I pointed out the overlaps between the chemtrail and anti-vax cultures (as he doesn't buy the antivaccine stuff, partly because that was my obsessive interest over the last decade and I researched it so much I can quote studies and figures off the top of my head even when not specifically prepared), as he offered this explanation of motives as the reason why my earlier analogy to the antivax conspiracy was invalid, except his reasoning ended up making them more similar than I had originally made a case for.
He had heard some guy talking on coast to coast, which he listens to fairly regularly, though he doesn't buy most of it, citing his enjoyment stemming from the more esoteric topics to stir his imagination, as he writes science fiction, and takes what he hears with a (not quite large enough) grain of salt.
The main arguments he gave were:
1) Contrails lasting longer than they used to. He cited his many years of experience looking up at the sky since he was little (he's in his mid-fifties) as evidence they indeed last longer now.
2) There are not enough jets zipping around to cause so many contrails so frequently. I asked how he arrived at this conclusion, but couldn't determine what answer he was attempting to give.
3) The guy talking about it on coast-to-coast didn't sound like a nut, or like he didn't know what he was talking about. I made the point that, to many parents who don't have scientific training, or a child who happened to obsess over medicine, research methodology, and autism, many of the quacks sound absolutely like they know what they're talking about when they talk about their "theories" of how vaccines cause autism.
4) Anyone who isn't an expert in the field has to rely on the word of someone else, so if you aren't there then how do you know?
5) It is reasonable that the government would do this, trying to help against global warming secretly and then having the intervention backfire. On this point I agreed, but I then pointed out that while a plausible motive is enough to justify speculation and investigation, further evidence is required to make a conclusion. I require evidence before endorsing a conclusion. Therefore, without evidence to the contrary, I cannot reject the null hypothesis. Currently, there is insufficient evidence to make a positive claim that contrails are anything more than that.
He mentioned something about HAARP at the beginning, but we didn't actually discuss it, so I don't know what argument he might've given for it. Just as well, since every time I see that acronym I think "highly-active-anti-retroviral-treatment" and I would get constantly distracted from the topic at hand.
PS: I asked who that guy was and if he had a website, and he provided this URL: http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/
As it turns out, he believed there was something to it, which floored me. I mean, my dad has had some wooy beliefs over the years so it wasn't as though it were completely uncharacteristic, but he is very intelligent and has actually changed his mind about long-held (over 20 years) beliefs, for instance that some of his memories he believed were of alien/demon/whatever encounters were probably sleep paralysis. It's not like he's a nut who's impervious to reason, and he just started thinking there is some validity to it recently. But he never studied science past high school and probably only retains up to junior high level math and science, and despite being intellectually gifted, his strengths are more in reading, writing, and fact memorization, and he didn't go to college (like me, he's high-functioning autistic, but I've attended a little over a year of college and am independently studying upper-level math and physics).
I'm a physics undergrad, and I have a Vulcanesque commitment to logic and science. So naturally there are disagreements. He endorsed the "they were trying to do something to help the environment but it ended up having negative side effects they want to keep hush hush" version, not the deliberate poisoning version.
I pointed out the overlaps between the chemtrail and anti-vax cultures (as he doesn't buy the antivaccine stuff, partly because that was my obsessive interest over the last decade and I researched it so much I can quote studies and figures off the top of my head even when not specifically prepared), as he offered this explanation of motives as the reason why my earlier analogy to the antivax conspiracy was invalid, except his reasoning ended up making them more similar than I had originally made a case for.
He had heard some guy talking on coast to coast, which he listens to fairly regularly, though he doesn't buy most of it, citing his enjoyment stemming from the more esoteric topics to stir his imagination, as he writes science fiction, and takes what he hears with a (not quite large enough) grain of salt.
The main arguments he gave were:
1) Contrails lasting longer than they used to. He cited his many years of experience looking up at the sky since he was little (he's in his mid-fifties) as evidence they indeed last longer now.
2) There are not enough jets zipping around to cause so many contrails so frequently. I asked how he arrived at this conclusion, but couldn't determine what answer he was attempting to give.
3) The guy talking about it on coast-to-coast didn't sound like a nut, or like he didn't know what he was talking about. I made the point that, to many parents who don't have scientific training, or a child who happened to obsess over medicine, research methodology, and autism, many of the quacks sound absolutely like they know what they're talking about when they talk about their "theories" of how vaccines cause autism.
4) Anyone who isn't an expert in the field has to rely on the word of someone else, so if you aren't there then how do you know?
5) It is reasonable that the government would do this, trying to help against global warming secretly and then having the intervention backfire. On this point I agreed, but I then pointed out that while a plausible motive is enough to justify speculation and investigation, further evidence is required to make a conclusion. I require evidence before endorsing a conclusion. Therefore, without evidence to the contrary, I cannot reject the null hypothesis. Currently, there is insufficient evidence to make a positive claim that contrails are anything more than that.
He mentioned something about HAARP at the beginning, but we didn't actually discuss it, so I don't know what argument he might've given for it. Just as well, since every time I see that acronym I think "highly-active-anti-retroviral-treatment" and I would get constantly distracted from the topic at hand.
PS: I asked who that guy was and if he had a website, and he provided this URL: http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/
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ComfySlippers
Banned
Nice wall of text.
Clouds are white. The sky is blue. Aeroplanes leave a trail.
Rainbows are cool. Water reflects light. I fart twice a day.
Sorted.
Clouds are white. The sky is blue. Aeroplanes leave a trail.
Rainbows are cool. Water reflects light. I fart twice a day.
Sorted.
https://www.google.com/search?q=b-1...w4DABw&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1368&bih=705
Contrails last according to temperature, pressure, and humidity, and more. It was cool to watch the SR-71; he would be conning and then stop. I was looking at B-17 contrails, bet they lasted a long time too. Guess he missed WWII.
Yep, with over 4,000 flights airborne at a given time, or 30,000 flight per day... , not enough Jets? Check your numbers before buying dad a beer...
The web site is nonsense. Yes, they are spraying with a deadly substance, which can kill in many ways... they have been spraying since early flight... they used the deadly, Dihydrogen Monoxide (DHMO) ... a colorless, odorless chemical compound, other names, Dihydrogen Oxide, Hydrogen Hydroxide, Hydronium Hydroxide, or Hydric acid. A highly reactive hydroxyl radical... CAN BE FATAL IF INHALED. WARNING...
its true, your dad was right?
In Flight to Arras. Antoine Saint-Exupery wrote about his high-altitude reconnaissance plane leaving contrails that would expand "covering the countryside".
This was a story published in 1942 about a flight in 1940. Have your dad read it. It's still available in paperback.
Mercurial Artism
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Thanks, I will suggest the book to him. The other replied above confuse me, however. To clarify, I did not think the website was a reliable source, nor did I find the arguments in favor of chemtrails convincing. Perhaps it was a form of sarcasm.
That is interesting, beachnut - I did suggest that a possible factor in his observations is that for the last four years we've lived in New York when previously he had both spent the majority of our lives in Southern California, which has much lower humidity most times. In conjunction with this, I offerred the possibility that, since he didn't start hearing about the chemtrails until he lived in New York, that the usual distortions of memory coupled with an observed real increase in duration could lead one to remember the change as more gradual and not occurring along sharp geographical divisions.
He interpreted my statement of the inherent unreliability of human memories to mean I was asserting that memories are all wrong (I forget exactly how he phrased it). I then clarified that I was only asserting that all human memories are subject to distortion and fading, irrespective of the conviction with with they are held. He said you can't dismiss memories based on a scientific study, and then I said it was not one study, but many, well-controlled studies establishing it as a basic fact of psychology and further, that it establishes human memory as a weaker form of evidence, albeit not completely worthless.
In any event, my reason for consulting this forum on the matter is that I do not want to immerse myself so thoroughly in a topic such as chemtrails when I would much rather immerse myself in quantum mechanics and plasma physics. Casual discussion seems like a far more proportionate use of my time and mental energy.
Mercurial Artism
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I couldn't find the edit button (perhaps it expires after a set time), so I just wanted to point out this good link which has a lot of links about the subject: http://contrailscience.com/how-to-debunk-chemtrails/
PS: I did see an edit button after posting this, so it apparently does expire at a set time.
PS: I did see an edit button after posting this, so it apparently does expire at a set time.
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arthwollipot
Limerick Purist
Yes, it does. 2 hours, I believe.
Gawdzilla Sama
121.92-meter mutant fire-breathing lizard-thingy
Chemtrails lead to the deep end of the Crazy Pool.
Morgellons Syndrome can be cured with a CRM-114 Discriminator.
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Alferd_Packer
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Have you ever noticed that the deep end of the crazy pool is also the shallow end of the gene pool?