My letter to Prof. Chomsky

[Travis]

You do realize that protesting the Iraq War was a bad thing?

I mean you are condemning people for not doing something terrible? How does this work?



Yes, that is a little hyperbole. But I wanted to let you know that not everyone shares your values.

 

[grunion]

Seems to:

US involvment with combat troops:
WWI: April 1917 - Nov 1918 (<2 years, no large scale protests)
WWII: Dec 1941 - Sept 1945 (4 years, no large scale protests)
Korea: June 1950 – July 1953 (<3 years, no large scale protests)
Vietnam: 1965 - 1975 (ten years, protested heavily)
Gulf War (Desert Storm): Aug 1990 – Feb 1991 (0.5 years, few protests)
Afghanistan: 2001 - ongoing (13+ and counting, protested heavily)
Iraq: 2003 - 2010 (seven years, protested heavily)

This seems a post hoc fallacy to me. The longer wars on this list were not lengthened due to mass protests, but due to lack of the clear combat strategy than the shorter ones had. As I recall the first Iraq war was pretty quick but had plenty of protestors too. I think the protests and the length of the wars you cite stem from a common cause - the lack of a military opponent and a clear political or military objective. When the war is US planes vs. foreign civilians it tends to be both unpopular and long.

And there was a significant amount of protest against US (and other countries') participation in WWI, especially in the drumbeat leading up to the war, until (and to some degree after) the passage of the Sedition Acts. 300,000 American men refused to serve. Wilson actually ran for reelection with the slogan "he kept us out of war" (but succumbed to the pro-war interests during his second term) and Eugene V. Debs garnered a million votes for President while sitting in prison for protesting that war.

But this is all a derail, please Watanabe continue telling us why we are so unworthy.

 

[Kid Eager]

What this thread needs is more outrage.

Tell me what I should be outraged about, and I'll be there.

I need guidance on both the topic and amount of outrage, so that I can meet the requirements set by some anonymous outraged internet dude.

 

[Piscivore]

This seems a post hoc fallacy to me. The longer wars on this list were not lengthened due to mass protests, but due to lack of the clear combat strategy than the shorter ones had. As I recall the first Iraq war was pretty quick but had plenty of protestors too. I think the protests and the length of the wars you cite stem from a common cause - the lack of a military opponent and a clear political or military objective. When the war is US planes vs. foreign civilians it tends to be both unpopular and long.

And there was a significant amount of protest against US (and other countries') participation in WWI, especially in the drumbeat leading up to the war, until (and to some degree after) the passage of the Sedition Acts. 300,000 American men refused to serve. Wilson actually ran for reelection with the slogan "he kept us out of war" (but succumbed to the pro-war interests during his second term) and Eugene V. Debs garnered a million votes for President while sitting in prison for protesting that war.

But this is all a derail, please Watanabe continue telling us why we are so unworthy.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Watanabe]

You do realize that protesting the Iraq War was a bad thing?

I mean you are condemning people for not doing something terrible? How does this work?



Yes, that is a little hyperbole. But I wanted to let you know that not everyone shares your values.

Yeah!
I remember your moral values was to go out and bomb some 10-12 countries all over the world..

 

[Watanabe]

That hinges on what "avoidable" means. As horrible as civilian deaths seem, the collateral damage from targeted Iraq bombings is piddling compared to the sort of bombing used in the Second World War. How can you weep for Falluja when you should know about the firestorms of Tokyo?

Yeah but that was long time ago

Really. They why has that never worked?

As people who protest are always not enough

Seems to:

US involvment with combat troops:
WWI: April 1917 - Nov 1918 (<2 years, no large scale protests)
WWII: Dec 1941 - Sept 1945 (4 years, no large scale protests)
Korea: June 1950 – July 1953 (<3 years, no large scale protests)
Vietnam: 1965 - 1975 (ten years, protested heavily)
Gulf War (Desert Storm): Aug 1990 – Feb 1991 (0.5 years, few protests)
Afghanistan: 2001 - ongoing (13+ and counting, protested heavily)
Iraq: 2003 - 2010 (seven years, protested heavily)

Getting better, still the heavily means 1% of total population?

I call BS on those statistics; you pulled them out of your rectum. Cite your sources.

They never be meant to be statistics.
Just my personal impressions

How many US citizens were happy when 9/11 happened??

See, that would be a "difference".

That would be hypocrisy

 

[Watanabe]

How many percent of the people what?

Here are som percentages fromt he article linked; make of them what you will:

A March 2003 Gallup poll conducted during the first few days of the war showed that 5% of the population had protested or made a public opposition against the war compared to 21% who attended a rally or made a public display to support the war.

Says it all ..

 

[The Don]

A March 2003 Gallup poll conducted during the first few days of the war showed that 5% of the population had protested or made a public opposition against the war compared to 21% who attended a rally or made a public display to support the war.

Says it all ..

Could you please provide a reference for this data.

Did the 21% include those people who were "supporting the troops" but not necessarily supporting the war itself ?

For example, I attended a number of anti-war protests around the start of the Iraq war. I have also donated thousands of pounds to soldiers' charities. Does that mean that I support the war ?

 

[Darth Rotor]

Freedom should be a chance for people to help each other, not an excuse for ignoring each other

That is both a non sequitur, and a misunderstanding of what the word "freedom" means.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

A March 2003 Gallup poll conducted during the first few days of the war showed that 5% of the population had protested or made a public opposition against the war

I imagine that very few people in general attend protests, not that it matters. There are other ways to help out.

Also, for what it's worth, I seem to recall Bush had a very, very low approval rating when he left office.

 

[applecorped]

I'm protesting this thread from my recliner.

 

[Piscivore]

Yeah but that was long time ago

So was Falluja. A long time, and many many miles. What it the statute of limitations on outrage for you?

As people who protest are always not enough

That's like saying penicillin isn't always enough to cure a a missing limb. Not only is it "not enough" it does not work at all in terms of stopping wars.

Getting better,

"Getting better"? what is "getting better"? That wars are getting smaller, but longer? Do you realize that the trend is pointing towards Orwell's perpetual state of low-grade armed conflict, and protesting is doing nothing to alleviate that?

...still the heavily means 1% of total population?

What is the obession with numbers? Numbers you don't even have? What do you think they will prove?

They never be meant to be statistics.
Just my personal impressions

Then don't present them as such, it is dishonest.

How many US citizens were happy when 9/11 happened??

What difference does that make? How many were happy when Katrina happened?

That would be hypocrisy

To you. And besides, hypocracy is another common human trait.

 

[trustbutverify]

The point is not that people have different concepts of justice, they have the same, they just do not apply the same concept when the killers are on their side

I'm curious, have you ever expressed outrage on this forum against the policies and behavior of a country not currently aligned/allied with the US? Have you ever lamented the lack of public anger and action against such a government?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Of course we don't feel partuclarly angry or saddened when something happens far, far away (or a long time ago. Or both). Humans become desensitized to disasters and tragedy over time. We have to, otherwise we would just go around and be disgusted and grief-stricken and furious 24/7. Still, a great many of us have one or more causes we actively contribute to, be it by donations, volunteering or activism. Probably only a few percentages have pacifism as that ideal, but that doesn't make the rest "passive sheep". In fact, probably only very, very few people have no causes they believe in strongly.

 

[Courier]

I'm curious, have you ever expressed outrage on this forum against the policies and behavior of a country not currently aligned/allied with the US? Have you ever lamented the lack of public anger and action against such a government?

Ofcourse not. The agenda of his posts is clearly anti-American.

 

[Piscivore]

I'm curious, have you ever expressed outrage on this forum against the policies and behavior of a country not currently aligned/allied with the US? Have you ever lamented the lack of public anger and action against such a government?

One wonders where his alleged noble sympathy or even interest is regarding Syria.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I'm curious, have you ever expressed outrage on this forum against the policies and behavior of a country not currently aligned/allied with the US?

There are people out there who seem to genuenly believe that Israel and the US are the worst countries in the world and that no other regimes come close to them in terms of wickedness. Watanabe could well be one of these people. In fact, I remember someone stating a few days ago that the Islamic nations (presumably including terrorist regimes, oppression of women and brutal dictatorships) was superior in morals to Israel and the US.

One wonders why they don't simply move there.

 

[Watanabe]

Could you please provide a reference for this data.

The link should be up here

I imagine that very few people in general attend protests, not that it matters. There are other ways to help out.

For example, to help Iraqi civilians bombed by US planes?
How in detail did US people help those civilians?

Also, for what it's worth, I seem to recall Bush had a very, very low approval rating when he left office.

Yes, but is there any evidence that he cared at all?
And the consequences of having started an unnecessary war that led to 200000+ deaths should be a little bit more serious than a ow poll rating, I believe

 

[Watanabe]

So was Falluja. A long time, and many many miles. What it the statute of limitations on outrage for you?

Falluja was not long ago, it was in 2004 or 2005 I believe

That's like saying penicillin isn't always enough to cure a a missing limb. Not only is it "not enough" it does not work at all in terms of stopping wars.

Do you have any evidence at all that, if 20% or 30% of the total population of an aggrressor country actively protests against a war, they would not be heard?

"Getting better"? what is "getting better"? That wars are getting smaller, but longer? Do you realize that the trend is pointing towards Orwell's perpetual state of low-grade armed conflict, and protesting is doing nothing to alleviate that?

The number of tgotal deaths seems to get lower

What is the obession with numbers? Numbers you don't even have? What do you think they will prove?

As I told you, that the majority of the US (and the French, and the Italian and the Japanese) population does not care much when their soldiers commit crimes on the other side of the world.

Then don't present them as such, it is dishonest.

I thought it was obvious

What difference does that make? How many were happy when Katrina happened?

Not talking about natural disaster here.
It makes a huge difference as US perople like all people only get moved and get angry and support when some of their citizens or friends is killed by someone outside or a terrorist, but when it is one of theirs soldiers to kill one or many people of the other side, most people simply do nothing or even support

To you. And besides, hypocracy is another common human trait.

If you discount even hypocrisy then no point to talk any further

 

[Watanabe]

One wonders where his alleged noble sympathy or even interest is regarding Syria.

Just for the record.
I think that Assad is a criminal regime, however please do not derail this thread.