My letter to Prof. Chomsky

[Praktik]

To which I disagree
Institutions are made up of people

Yes, exactly - and the disagreement stems from a fundamental philosophical gap, and will be unlikely to be bridged by a letter sent from "the other side".

This is an age-old debate and if we still haven't hashed out if Hobbes or Locke was right about human nature, I think this is one debate we will keep having - cause I expect the "great man"/individualist people will persist in being wrong for quite some time..

 

[Piscivore]

So why even faking that we care about each other?
Oh, this is also part of "being human"?

You don't have to fake that you care about everyone; simply care about those that are important to you. There's nothing wrong with that.

All those religious rules about "love thy neighbor" were codified in the days when a person's world was the few hundred people in their immediate vicinity. Those rules simply do not work in a global society.

 

[Praktik]

I've already pointed out how your collection of ideological leftist clichés is a product of the same mass-media you claim to despise.

The more you think you're not a sheep, the more you are one.

I wish there was a phrase I could use right now... like something about pots being close to spatulas - or kettles maybe??

 

[Safe-Keeper]

The truth that I have never read in your books is that we, with the exception of very few people, are passive sheep

There have been riots going on in Stochkolm for several days now. Cars smashed, violence, clashes with police... and it seems there are always demonstrations and/or riots going on somewhere, and that's just the ones we hear about; as Virus pointed out, we hardly get good coverage of world events. This comes in addition to activist groups, lobbyists, bloggers and podcasters, conspiracy theorists and the list goes on.

These passive sheep of yours sure make a lot of noise.

Then please explain me.
How do US people express their grieve and horror for the victims of Fallujah, Iraqi civilians killed by US troops?

You're joking, right? I lived in the US from 2001 to 2004, and there seemed to be more people against the war than in favour at times -- and yes, you had plenty of people disgusted with what the US government did, both in relation to Iraq and things such as illegal wiretapping, Guantanamo, etc.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9243202#post9243202

Those who call sheep, are the biggest sheep themselves.

Call me old and cynical because I certainly feel that way at times, but this has actually been my impression, too.

 

[Flo]

Yes.
Listen to Shakria is not exactly my private idea of "human improvement"

De gustibus non disputandur !

You are still angry because I proved you said lies in the other thread.
Get over it

You wish it were so, but unfortunately ...

I am not a sheep.
I criticized my own country many times.
Even in front of my boss and colleagues.
Risking my job.
I try to do activism.
I say what I think in front of anyone.

This is very nice and brave, but not everybody can afford to lose their capacity to take care of their family ...

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I am not a sheep.
I criticized my own country many times.
Even in front of my boss and colleagues.
Risking my job.
I try to do activism.
I say what I think in front of anyone.

You can be vocal and still be a sheep.

 

[timhau]

I say what I think in front of anyone.

So does she.

 

[Elizabeth I]

Then please explain me.
How do US people express their grieve and horror for the victims of Fallujah, Iraqi civilians killed by US troops?
How do Japanese people express their grieve and horror for the victims of the Nanking Massacre?

Maybe I am missing something

Please let me know

Please let me know how US citizens show their "concern" for the children shown in the below pictures

http://respect-discussion.blogspot.jp/2010/10/us-war-crimes-in-fallujah.html

You don't read much, do you? Some (a lot) of people show their concern by volunteering for charities, donating money, or doing hard jobs for very little pay. And it's not always only for people "close to them" - Doctors Without Borders, Angel Flight, Greenpeace, the Salvation Army and the Red Cross come to mind immediately. There are also people like "volunteer grandparents" who donate time to be with hospitalized children who are no relation to them at all.

I'm sorry for yelling, but:

SOME PEOPLE DON'T DO THINGS THE WAY YOU WOULD DO THEM. THEY MAY NOT SHOW THEY CARE IN THE SAME WAY THAT YOU WOULD. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T CARE.

Who made you the boss of how the world should act?

 

[Watanabe]

You don't read much, do you? Some (a lot) of people show their concern by volunteering for charities, donating money, or doing hard jobs for very little pay. And it's not always only for people "close to them" - Doctors Without Borders, Angel Flight, Greenpeace, the Salvation Army and the Red Cross come to mind immediately. There are also people like "volunteer grandparents" who donate time to be with hospitalized children who are no relation to them at all.

Maybe 1% of the total population?
Maybe 2% or 3%?

I'm sorry for yelling, but:

SOME PEOPLE DON'T DO THINGS THE WAY YOU WOULD DO THEM. THEY MAY NOT SHOW THEY CARE IN THE SAME WAY THAT YOU WOULD. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T CARE.

Who made you the boss of how the world should act?

NOBODY MADE ME THE BOSS OF ANYWHERE. I AM JUST ASKING YOU WHY PEOPLE DO NOT CONDEMN AND FIGHT AGAINST THEIR OWN GOVERNMENTS, SOLDIERS, POLITICIANS AND EVEN FRIENDS WHEN THEY SEE AN INJUSTICE COMMITTED BY THEIR OWN SIDE? AND THIS IS TRUE FOR AMERICANS, JAPANESE, IRANIANS AND RUSSIANS

 

[Watanabe]

You're joking, right? I lived in the US from 2001 to 2004, and there seemed to be more people against the war than in favour at times -- and yes, you had plenty of people disgusted with what the US government did, both in relation to Iraq and things such as illegal wiretapping, Guantanamo, etc.

How many people you know actually went out and protested against the war?

 

[Watanabe]

You don't have to fake that you care about everyone; simply care about those that are important to you. There's nothing wrong with that.

There is nothing wrong of caring just about the ones close to me and if my Government bombs a far away country just turn my face away?

 

[Piscivore]

I AM JUST ASKING YOU WHY PEOPLE DO NOT CONDEMN AND FIGHT AGAINST THEIR OWN GOVERNMENTS, SOLDIERS, POLITICIANS AND EVEN FRIENDS WHEN THEY SEE AN INJUSTICE COMMITTED BY THEIR OWN SIDE? AND THIS IS TRUE FOR AMERICANS, JAPANESE, IRANIANS AND RUSSIANS

Because not everyone has the same concept of "justice" as you do. I don't think it even exists as an objective entity; it seems to me that when people say "justice" they mean "the way I prefer things to turn out".

There is nothing wrong of caring just about the ones close to me and if my Government bombs a far away country just turn my face away?

Sure, why not? Can you control your government? Can you magically make the bombs stop? It has been speculated that the protests over Vietnam prolonged the war by making the Hawks in charge dig their heels in rather than be seen capitulating to their rivals; that certainly goes along with most behavioural studies I am aware of. Besides that, many people may agree with the ends the bombing is trying to achieve.

It is very common for us to think our values and desires are objective, universal norms, but it just ain't so--as you are learning.

 

[Piscivore]

How many people you know actually went out and protested against the war?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war_protests

And guess what? None of them did a damn thing to stop the war.

 

[Watanabe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war_protests

And guess what? None of them did a damn thing to stop the war.

You did not reply to my question.
How many % of the people?

 

[Watanabe]

Because not everyone has the same concept of "justice" as you do. I don't think it even exists as an objective entity; it seems to me that when people say "justice" they mean "the way I prefer things to turn out".

Bombing innocents when avoidable is not my concept of justice.
Is it yours ?

Sure, why not? Can you control your government? Can you magically make the bombs stop?

Yes.
Not if you act alone, though

It has been speculated that the protests over Vietnam prolonged the war by making the Hawks in charge dig their heels in rather than be seen capitulating to their rivals; that certainly goes along with most behavioural studies I am aware of. Besides that, many people may agree with the ends the bombing is trying to achieve.

Protesting against the war makes the war worse/longer?

It is very common for us to think our values and desires are objective, universal norms, but it just ain't so--as you are learning.

False.
99.99% of the US people condemned 9/11
99.99% of the Japanese people condemned the terrorist attacks with Sarin
But only as they were intended torwards them
The point is not that people have different concepts of justice, they have the same, they just do not apply the same concept when the killers are on their side

 

[Courier]

How many people you know actually went out and protested against the war?

How many anti-Iraq War protests did you attend?

 

[Piscivore]

You did not reply to my question.
How many % of the people?

How many percent of the people what?

Here are som percentages fromt he article linked; make of them what you will:

A March 2003 Gallup poll conducted during the first few days of the war showed that 5% of the population had protested or made a public opposition against the war compared to 21% who attended a rally or made a public display to support the war. An ABC news poll showed that 2% had attended an anti-war protest and 1% attended a pro-war rally. The protests made 20% more opposed to the war and 7% more supportive. A Fox News poll showed that 63% had an unfavorable view of the protesters, just 23% had a favorable view. According to Pew Research, 40% said in March 2003 that they had heard "too much" from people opposed to the war against 17% who said "too little".

 

[fuelair]

Maybe 1% of the total population?
Maybe 2% or 3%?



NOBODY MADE ME THE BOSS OF ANYWHERE. I AM JUST ASKING YOU WHY PEOPLE DO NOT CONDEMN AND FIGHT AGAINST THEIR OWN GOVERNMENTS, SOLDIERS, POLITICIANS AND EVEN FRIENDS WHEN THEY SEE AN INJUSTICE COMMITTED BY THEIR OWN SIDE? AND THIS IS TRUE FOR AMERICANS, JAPANESE, IRANIANS AND RUSSIANS

And you have been answered many times - and with many different answers - and, as noted before by multiple people YOU CLEARLY DO NOT LIKE THE ANSWERS YOU GET. TOUGH, LIFE IS. I'M OFFICIALLY BORED.

 

[uke2se]

How many anti-Iraq War protests did you attend?

I would like to know this as well.

How many, Watanabe?

 

[Piscivore]

Bombing innocents when avoidable is not my concept of justice.
Is it yours ?

That hinges on what "avoidable" means. As horrible as civilian deaths seem, the collateral damage from targeted Iraq bombings is piddling compared to the sort of bombing used in the Second World War. How can you weep for Falluja when you should know about the firestorms of Tokyo?

Yes.
Not if you act alone, though

Really. They why has that never worked?

Protesting against the war makes the war worse/longer?

Seems to:

US involvment with combat troops:
WWI: April 1917 - Nov 1918 (<2 years, no large scale protests)
WWII: Dec 1941 - Sept 1945 (4 years, no large scale protests)
Korea: June 1950 – July 1953 (<3 years, no large scale protests)
Vietnam: 1965 - 1975 (ten years, protested heavily)
Gulf War (Desert Storm): Aug 1990 – Feb 1991 (0.5 years, few protests)
Afghanistan: 2001 - ongoing (13+ and counting, protested heavily)
Iraq: 2003 - 2010 (seven years, protested heavily)

False.
99.99% of the US people condemned 9/11
99.99% of the Japanese people condemned the terrorist attacks with Sarin

I call BS on those statistics; you pulled them out of your rectum. Cite your sources.

But only as they were intended torwards them
The point is not that people have different concepts of justice, they have the same, they just do not apply the same concept when the killers are on their side

See, that would be a "difference".