Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[RandFan]

"More likely than those who drop out" is like saying that slaves who stayed on the plantation ate better than runaways. Not "more likely to get a job" than children in independent or parochial schools.
Joshua Angrist
"Randomized Trials and Quasi-Experiments in Education Research"
NBER Reporter, summer, 2003
Not compared to homeschoolers.
Marvin Minsky (Interview, Communications of the Association for Computing Machinery, 1994-July)

Albert Einstein
"Force and Fear Have No Place in Education"Albert Einstein
"Autobiographical Notes"
Albert Einstein: Philosopher-Scientist, Paul Schilpp, ed. (1951)Note the comment on the incentive structure that compulsory instruction creates.

This completely ignores my post. It ignores all of the benefits I listed. It ignores at least a half million dollars on average. If you told me some person was awarded a half million dollars for his time and effort I would never ever call that person a slave. I went through public education and I'm grateful to it. I grew up on a farm and the only way I could escape the drudgery of working on the farm was to go to school. I didn't love it but I can't say that they were task masters the way my parents were. Had I gone to private/parochial school my experience would have been the same or worse (I have a close friend who went to Catholic school and regrets it).

A.) I cannot at all relate to what it is your saying. No one is truly free. Life impinges itself on us whether we like it or not. Those that don't avail themselves of education often end up homeless or poor. They are not able to make the same decisions like going on vacation or going to the theatre B.) Anyone who receives a half million dollars for their efforts isn't a slave. They have been freed. Free to make choices a poor person cannot. Free from want and the hell that is poverty.

Until you can respond to what I'm saying you are wasting time. Particularly with these appeals to authority. Einstein? Well, Newton believed in Alchemy so I suppose that settles that.

Get back to me when you can figure out how a slave gets nights and weeks off. Gets the entire summer off. And when that person becomes an adult he or she will have greater freedom from want. Greater choices in life for increased well-being, etc., etc..

Your argument is simply incoherent and I assume you have zero interest in reading my posts and/or responding to them directly. The premises are inconvenient so you ignore them.

Fine.

 

[RandFan]

1. Not("school"="education"). NOT("attendance at State-worshipful indoctrination centers"="public education").
2. Compulsory, unpaid labor is slavery. Black or white, male or female, young or old. In the US, children work, unpaid, as window dressing in the massive make-work program for dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel that many people call "the public school system".
3. Schools, as they currently operate in the US, are a huge waste of time. It does not take 12 years at $12,000 per pupil-year to teach a normal child to read and compute.
4. It's compulsory. You cannot eat a transcript. Many normal children do not have academic aspirations.
5. Or not, depending on the district. Support for vouchers is negatively correlated with income (poor parents want out). Support for vouchers is higher among black parents than among white parents. Political control of school harms most the children of the least politically adept parents

• School = the ability to get an education which is what private industry values.
• School = the chance to better yourself so that you can make half a million more on average than children who don't graduate.
• School = the chance to be free from want, to go on vacation, buy the the things you need and want.
• School = a higher likelihood of well being.
• Parenting is compulsory and it is their responsibility to ensure their children grow up to be self sufficient. All of my children work. Thank in part to the things I made them do as children. Children need that kind of direction in life because they aren't born to take care of themselves.

Public/state funded/private/parochial etc., if it meets the standards set then it's extremely valuable.

 

[A'isha]

Many normal children do not have academic aspirations.

There's a reason we don't let children make their own life choices, you know.

The rest of your post is the exact same, word-for-word nonsense you've repeated ad nauseam in this thread and others, and not a single part of it is in any way responsive to RandFan's post.

 

[Border Reiver]

1. Not("school"="education"). NOT("attendance at State-worshipful indoctrination centers"="public education").
2. Compulsory, unpaid labor is slavery. Black or white, male or female, young or old. In the US, children work, unpaid, as window dressing in the massive make-work program for dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel that many people call "the public school system".
3. Schools, as they currently operate in the US, are a huge waste of time. It does not take 12 years at $12,000 per pupil-year to teach a normal child to read and compute.
4. It's compulsory. You cannot eat a transcript. Many normal children do not have academic aspirations.
5. Or not, depending on the district. Support for vouchers is negatively correlated with income (poor parents want out). Support for vouchers is higher among black parents than among white parents. Political control of school harms most the children of the least politically adept parents

Slavery is NOT "compulsory, unpaid labour" - it is an economic system where humans can be property of others and their labour exploited accordingly.

Your definition is so broad as to be worthless, since it encompasses everything from actual slavery to household chores to work done behalf of various self-help organizations.

Given that students come out of the "massive make-work program for dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel that many people call "the public school system"" with the necessary academic qualifications to move onto higher education or to obtain better employment than they otherwise might, said students are getting something out of their participation in the system.

If all we want our children to do is be able to sign their employment contract, then we could get them out in a couple of years. If we want them to be able to understand those contracts, or indeed what a contract is, how to object to unfair contracts or deal with contract violations, then that is going to require a wee bit more knowledge and critical thinking skills than just being able to "read and compute".

Whether a child has academic aspirations or not, it is to their benefit to know how the system of government is supposed to work, to have an appreciation of art and literature, and how to act in social situations.

 

[RandFan]

Slavery is NOT "compulsory, unpaid labour" - it is an economic system where humans can be property of others and their labour exploited accordingly.

Your definition is so broad as to be worthless, since it encompasses everything from actual slavery to household chores to work done behalf of various self-help organizations.
Given that students come out of the "massive make-work program for dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel that many people call "the public school system"" with the necessary academic qualifications to move onto higher education or to obtain better employment than they otherwise might, said students are getting something out of their participation in the system.

If all we want our children to do is be able to sign their employment contract, then we could get them out in a couple of years. If we want them to be able to understand those contracts, or indeed what a contract is, how to object to unfair contracts or deal with contract violations, then that is going to require a wee bit more knowledge and critical thinking skills than just being able to "read and compute".

Whether a child has academic aspirations or not, it is to their benefit to know how the system of government is supposed to work, to have an appreciation of art and literature, and how to act in social situations.

A fantastic point. In the end it is simply a broad and meaningless definition in context. It could be argued that work is compulsory. If you don't go to your job you might be homeless. Reality can be a cruel task master. "I'm a slave to my job" is a common refrain but it doesn't really make any employee into a slave in the classical sense.

 

[dudalb]

Notice that Arguing with a hard core Libertarian is just like arguing with a hard core Religious believer?

 

[RandFan]

Notice that Arguing with a hard core Libertarian is just like arguing with a hard core Religious believer?

IIRC, Malcolm claims not to be a libertarian and he scoffs at them. He acts like one, or some kind of anarcho-capitalist or whatever. He values freedom as if freedom comes from not having a government. He hates violence as if government cannot protect citizens from violence and getting rid of government would get rid of violence. Or something like that. I'm not trying to put words in his mouth or define him. I'm trying to say whatever he believes is, IMO, incoherent.

 

[dudalb]

IIRC, Malcolm claims not to be a libertarian and he scoffs at them. He acts like one, or some kind of anarcho-capitalist or whatever. He values freedom as if freedom comes from not having a government. He hates violence as if government cannot protect citizens from violence and getting rid of government would get rid of violence. Or something like that. I'm not trying to put words in his mouth or define him. I'm trying to say whatever he believes is, IMO, incoherent.

For someone who derides Libertarians,he sure as heck preaches a lot of Libertarian doctrine.

 

[Border Reiver]

For someone who derides Libertarians,he sure as heck preaches a lot of Libertarian doctrine.

I also sense a lot of sour grapes when he starts his anti teachers union rant.

 

[A'isha]

Louisiana voucher students score almost 30 points below average on LEAP tests

Released Wednesday, LEAP scores for third- through eighth-graders show only 40 percent of voucher students scored at or above grade level this past spring. The state average for all students was 69 percent.

For accountability purposes, students attending private schools at taxpayer expense take the same standardized tests as their peers in public schools. In 2011, when the voucher program operated only in New Orleans, students averaged 33 percent proficiency.

Now seven schools in Jefferson and Orleans parishes have results so low -- less than 25 percent of voucher students proficient for three years running -- that they have been barred from accepting new voucher students in the fall, as per state policy. In Orleans, the schools are Life of Christ Academy, the Upperroom Bible Church Academy, Bishop McManus, Conquering Word Christian Academy Eastbank and Holy Rosary Academy. In Jefferson, they are Faith Christian Academy and Conquering Word Christian Academy.

I guess letting kids attend schools where they're taught that Jesus rode dinosaurs and math is a Satanic lie isn't a good idea after all.

 

[RandFan]

Louisiana voucher students score almost 30 points below average on LEAP tests

Released Wednesday, LEAP scores for third- through eighth-graders show only 40 percent of voucher students scored at or above grade level this past spring. The state average for all students was 69 percent.

For accountability purposes, students attending private schools at taxpayer expense take the same standardized tests as their peers in public schools. In 2011, when the voucher program operated only in New Orleans, students averaged 33 percent proficiency.

Now seven schools in Jefferson and Orleans parishes have results so low -- less than 25 percent of voucher students proficient for three years running -- that they have been barred from accepting new voucher students in the fall, as per state policy. In Orleans, the schools are Life of Christ Academy, the Upperroom Bible Church Academy, Bishop McManus, Conquering Word Christian Academy Eastbank and Holy Rosary Academy. In Jefferson, they are Faith Christian Academy and Conquering Word Christian Academy.

I guess letting kids attend schools where they're taught that Jesus rode dinosaurs and math is a Satanic lie isn't a good idea after all.

Oh snap.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Slavery is NOT "compulsory, unpaid labour" - it is an economic system where humans can be property of others and their labour exploited accordingly.¹
Your definition is so broad as to be worthless, since it encompasses everything from actual slavery to household chores to work done behalf of various self-help organizations.²
Given that students come out of the "massive make-work program for dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel that many people call "the public school system"" with the necessary academic qualifications to move onto higher education or to obtain better employment than they otherwise might³, said students are getting something out of their participation in the system.

If all we want our children to do is be able to sign their employment contract, then we could get them out in a couple of years. If we want them to be able to understand those contracts, or indeed what a contract is, how to object to unfair contracts or deal with contract violations, then that is going to require a wee bit more knowledge and critical thinking skills than just being able to "read and compute".

Whether a child has academic aspirations or not, it is to their benefit to know how the system of government is supposed to work⁴, to have an appreciation of art and literature, and how to act in social situations⁵.

1. Like I said, "compulsory (that implies control, which is where your "property" enters), unpaid (where "exploited" enters) labor". We agree.
2. Voluntary work for charitable organizations is not "compulsory". Whether the definition is "useless" depends on the use to which the definition is put. Including compulsory school attendance in "slavery" indicates the destructive impact on incentives which State violence has.
3. Some students benefit. Many do not. Political control of school harms most the children of the least politically adept parents. Whether this institution has a net positive impact on society is a judgment that must assess the opportunity cost of the current system.
4. We agree. To me this is a reason to get government out of the education business.
George Orwell
Review of "Power; A New Social Analysis" by Bertrand Russell

One has only to to think of the sinister possibilities of the radio, State-controlled education, and so forth, to realize that 'the truth is great and will prevail' is a prayer rather than an axiom.

5. Make a list of all the goods and services you wish people could enjoy. Now explain why the State should supply them. Your argument works for nutrition. Do you advocate collectivized agriculture? NOT("good to have"="good for the State to supply"), to anyone other than a Stalinist who learned nothing from the twentieth century.

 

[Mister Earl]

NOT("good to have"="good for the State to supply"), to anyone other than a Stalinist who learned nothing from the twentieth century.

Begging your pardon, but in consideration of the quality of your posts, I do not believe you have any foundation of any sort of complaint about what others have or have not learned.

 

[mijopaalmc]

Malcom-

As a minimal courtesy to other posters, could you possibly start using the multi-quote function?

 

[A'isha]

George Orwell
Review of "Power; A New Social Analysis" by Bertrand Russell

Are you sure you want to keep using that quote? Because Orwell was only talking about the "sinister possibilities" of those things as potentially used by dictators (with the specific example cited of Hitler), and not saying anything about the mere existence of those things being bad in and of themselves, and he lumped plain old radio in with State-controlled schools.

Or are you just as firmly against people having television sets and car stereos as you are against centralized national education?

 

[Border Reiver]

1. Like I said, "compulsory (that implies control, which is where your "property" enters), unpaid (where "exploited" enters) labor". We agree.

No, we don't. Compulsory labour is only the beginning of slavery. You are deliberately ignoring the part where human beings are able to be treated as property , meaning that like any other property it can be bought and sold (students, if they were truly slaves of the system could be traded between schools in exchange for goods, services or cash), plus as property, would have no recourse against the "owners" of the system.

2. Voluntary work for charitable organizations is not "compulsory". Whether the definition is "useless" depends on the use to which the definition is put. Including compulsory school attendance in "slavery" indicates the destructive impact on incentives which State violence has.

The "self help" organizations are often clubs (I know of several shooting clubs, a boating club and a housing organization) which in addition to the usual membership fees require that the members donate their time to various functions (grounds maintenance, running fundraisers, etc).

Your definition is too broad and encompasses too many activities for meaningful discussion of what could be slavery. Fairly damaging for your own arguments, it does not differentiate between students in a public or a private school - most of whom are there because the parents are making them attend.

3. MostSome students benefit. A small percentage Many do not. Political control of school harms most the children of the least politically adept parents. Whether this institution has a net positive impact on society is a judgment that must assess the opportunity cost of the current system.

Fixed that for you. The opportunity loss is minor, given that few if any employers provide OJT for anything but the most low skilled jobs(fast food cook, dishwasher, etc)

4. We agree. To me this is a reason to get government out of the education business.
George Orwell
Review of "Power; A New Social Analysis" by Bertrand Russell

Given that Orwell's education was delivered by a private institution selected and paid for by his parents, I would think that you'd be ignoring his views.

5. Make a list of all the goods and services you wish people could enjoy. Now explain why the State should supply them. Your argument works for nutrition. Do you advocate collectivized agriculture? NOT("good to have"="good for the State to supply"), to anyone other than a Stalinist who learned nothing from the twentieth century.

How do you go from me saying that it is to the benefit of the student to be exposed to and (hopefully) get an appreciation for the arts and literature to me wanting the State to supply them to people?

 

[Belz...]

This is like saying that since exercise "has value" (better, "people value exercise") forced labor is valuable. Most businesses value some skilled workers. They would value them if those workers received their skills in a government-operated school, a voucher-subsidized school, an unsubsidized school, from OJT with a previous employer, or if workers emerged fully formed from the brow of Zeus. Whether anyone wins with a policy of tax subsidization of school, State (government, generally) operation of school, and compulsory attendance statutes will depend on the opportunity cost of that policy relative to other options.

I take it you've never been to public school, because it's nothing like you claim.

 

[Belz...]

That's what the system's propagandists want people to believe.

That's insinuation, not evidence.

 

[RandFan]

This completely ignores my post. It ignores all of the benefits I listed. It ignores at least a half million dollars on average. If you told me some person was awarded a half million dollars for his time and effort I would never ever call that person a slave. I went through public education and I'm grateful to it. I grew up on a farm and the only way I could escape the drudgery of working on the farm was to go to school. I didn't love it but I can't say that they were task masters the way my parents were. Had I gone to private/parochial school my experience would have been the same or worse (I have a close friend who went to Catholic school and regrets it).

A.) I cannot at all relate to what it is your saying. No one is truly free. Life impinges itself on us whether we like it or not. Those that don't avail themselves of education often end up homeless or poor. They are not able to make the same decisions like going on vacation or going to the theatre B.) Anyone who receives a half million dollars for their efforts isn't a slave. They have been freed. Free to make choices a poor person cannot. Free from want and the hell that is poverty.

Until you can respond to what I'm saying you are wasting time. Particularly with these appeals to authority. Einstein? Well, Newton believed in Alchemy so I suppose that settles that.

Get back to me when you can figure out how a slave gets nights and weeks off. Gets the entire summer off. And when that person becomes an adult he or she will have greater freedom from want. Greater choices in life for increased well-being, etc., etc..

Your argument is simply incoherent and I assume you have zero interest in reading my posts and/or responding to them directly. The premises are inconvenient so you ignore them.

Fine.

• School = the ability to get an education which is what private industry values.
• School = the chance to better yourself so that you can make half a million more on average than children who don't graduate.
• School = the chance to be free from want, to go on vacation, buy the the things you need and want.
• School = a higher likelihood of well being.
• Parenting is compulsory and it is their responsibility to ensure their children grow up to be self sufficient. All of my children work. Thank in part to the things I made them do as children. Children need that kind of direction in life because they aren't born to take care of themselves.

Public/state funded/private/parochial etc., if it meets the standards set then it's extremely valuable.

How anyone can swallow that state run private school is slavery is beyond me.

 

[Chaos]

We agree.

This is, once more, dishonest to the extreme. NOBODY here, not a single poster, agrees to any of the deranged nonsense you´ve been spewing in this thread.

to anyone other than a Stalinist who learned nothing from the twentieth century.

Calling people names does not equal being right or anything remotely resembling an argument - especially not when you have demonstrated you don´t have the faintest idea what the names you´re calling people actually mean.