Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[KenRam]

What about prisoners. Are they not slave?

 

[Border Reiver]

What about prisoners. Are they not slave?

No, prisoners cannot be sold as property, and still have some legal rights. So no, they are not slaves.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

...
George Orwell
Review of "Power; A New Social Analysis" by Bertrand Russell

One has only to to think of the sinister possibilities of the radio, State-controlled education, and so forth, to realize that 'the truth is great and will prevail' is a prayer rather than an axiom.

...

Are you sure you want to keep using that quote? Because Orwell was only talking about the "sinister possibilities" of those things as potentially used by dictators (with the specific example cited of Hitler), and not saying anything about the mere existence of those things being bad in and of themselves, and he lumped plain old radio in with State-controlled schools.

Or are you just as firmly against people having television sets and car stereos as you are against centralized national education?

I'd oppose State-controlled news media or State-subsidized news media.(Pravda, the BBC, NPR, etc).

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

I take it you've never been to public school, because it's nothing like you claim.

I attended Hawaii DOE schools K-12 and taught in the Hawaii DOE for 12 years (two years as a part-time teacher and home tutor and ten years Secondary Math full-time.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

What about prisoners. Are they not slave?

No, prisoners cannot be sold as property, and still have some legal rights. So no, they are not slaves.

Yes, prisoners are slaves. Markets in people do not define slavery (markets are a sufficient but not a necessary condition). Slave labor mined gold in the camps of the Kolyma River in Stalin's Russia. Robinson Cruesoe could have enslaved Friday.

 

[RandFan]

What about prisoners. Are they not slave?

What about the Moon? Is it not a slave? What about the bacteria in your gut? What about the kid who has to do his chores? What about the people who think that state run/paid for/supervised/standardized/whatever = slavery, is a point to be taken seriously? What about those poor souls? Who is going to break the news to them that philosophically none of us are free?

BTW: "Does anyone truly know what time it is?"

 

[A'isha]

I'd oppose State-controlled news media or State-subsidized news media.

Orwell didn't say State-controlled or State-subsidized news media, though. He didn't say anything at all about the State in relation to media.

And he also didn't say he opposed State-controlled education in that quote.

You are quote-mining, twisting what Orwell said to imply that he agrees with your bizarre absolutist position about State-run education, when he was doing no such thing.

(Pravda, the BBC, NPR, etc).

There aren't enough eyerolls in the world for that nonsense.

 

[TjW]

What about the Moon? Is it not a slave? What about the bacteria in your gut? What about the kid who has to do his chores? What about the people who think that state run/paid for/supervised/standardized/whatever = slavery, is a point to be taken seriously? What about those poor souls? Who is going to break the news to them that philosophically none of us are free?

BTW: "Does anyone truly know what time it is?"

Twenty five or six to four.

 

[bruto]

Twenty five or six to four.

As if anybody really cared.

 

[Border Reiver]

Yes, prisoners are slaves. Markets in people do not define slavery (markets are a sufficient but not a necessary condition). Slave labor mined gold in the camps of the Kolyma River in Stalin's Russia. Robinson Cruesoe could have enslaved Friday.

No, prisoners compelled to work are forced labourers, not slaves. If a person cannot be sold as property they are not a slaves. Your definition is inaccurate, as those people given non-custodial sentences of "x" hours community service are slaves.

 

[RandFan]

No, prisoners compelled to work are forced labourers, not slaves. If a person cannot be sold as property they are not a slaves. Your definition is inaccurate, as those people given non-custodial sentences of "x" hours community service are slaves.

I agree with you but I think there is a line that can be crossed. When prisoners are beaten to make them work harder or if they are forced to perform labor for political purposes (see Gulag or forced labor camps) then I think we are bordering on slavery.

Contrary to fairy tale definitions it's not a completely black and white term. Even Malcolm admits that parents can and should force their children to perform chores and give them responsibilities. Not much difference than forcing them to sit in a class where they might learn about reality and how to think.

Corporal punishment isn't even allowed in most if not all state funded, state run schools.

 

[Chaos]

I agree with you but I think there is a line that can be crossed. When prisoners are beaten to make them work harder or if they are forced to perform labor for political purposes (see Gulag or forced labor camps) then I think we are bordering on slavery.

Contrary to fairy tale definitions it's not a completely black and white term. Even Malcolm admits that parents can and should force their children to perform chores and give them responsibilities. Not much difference than forcing them to sit in a class where they might learn about reality and how to think.

Corporal punishment isn't even allowed in most if not all state funded, state run schools.

I´d say one approach to define the borders of slavery is - is the subject considered a person or an object? For example, if you harm the subject, do you owe damages to the subject or its next-of-kin, or to someone else whose property you damaged? Are you prosecuted for murder/assault, or for destruction/damage of someone else´s property? If the owner/employer/overlord harms the subject, are they prosecuted (de jure, not de facto) at all?

 

[RandFan]

I´d say one approach to define the borders of slavery is - is the subject considered a person or an object? For example, if you harm the subject, do you owe damages to the subject or its next-of-kin, or to someone else whose property you damaged? Are you prosecuted for murder/assault, or for destruction/damage of someone else´s property? If the owner/employer/overlord harms the subject, are they prosecuted (de jure, not de facto) at all?

Very good post. I agree. Prisoners in the US are afforded most every right that we each get. It's hard to think of someone with rights as a slave. That would seem to move that status along the gradient toward not being a slave but not being free to leave either.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Is this the thread of a petulant teenager?

"Don't WANNA go to school. It's..it's like slavery or something! Can't make me!"

 

[Border Reiver]

Is this the thread of a petulant teenager?

"Don't WANNA go to school. It's..it's like slavery or something! Can't make me!"

Pretty much.

 

[RandFan]

"More likely than those who drop out" is like saying that slaves who stayed on the plantation ate better than runaways. Not "more likely to get a job" than children in independent or parochial schools.
Joshua Angrist
"Randomized Trials and Quasi-Experiments in Education Research"
NBER Reporter, summer, 2003
Not compared to homeschoolers.
Marvin Minsky (Interview, Communications of the Association for Computing Machinery, 1994-July)

Albert Einstein
"Force and Fear Have No Place in Education"Albert Einstein
"Autobiographical Notes"
Albert Einstein: Philosopher-Scientist, Paul Schilpp, ed. (1951)Note the comment on the incentive structure that compulsory instruction creates.

None of this justifies your equivocation of the word "slavery". And you still haven't addressed the argument but are simply cutting and pasting ad nauseam. Could you stop with the silly appeals to authority and state in clear language your arguments.

 

[RandFan]

Not "more likely to get a job" than children in independent or parochial schools.

Parents force their children to go to independent or parochial schools. The teachers at those schools punish children with bad grades who do poorly.

State run school is no more slavery than is independent or parochial schools. Both have standards. Both punish children who misbehave or perform badly.

Ask a parent who sends his or her child to an independent or parochial school if the choice of whether to attend is left to the child?

Your argument, even with the silly appeals to authority, is fatuous on its face (and special pleading to boot).

 

[MinnesotaBrant]

All you are is just another brick in the wall.

 

[RandFan]

All you are is just another brick in the wall.

 

[R.A.F.]

I attended Hawaii DOE schools K-12 and taught in the Hawaii DOE for 12 years (two years as a part-time teacher and home tutor and ten years Secondary Math full-time.

So you consider yourself an authority re. public education, and we should just blindly accept whatever you opinion is??

Perhaps you would have better luck with that if you made a persuasive argument...as opposed to what you've been doing...


How can you equate slavery with education, when one has absolutely no benefits, while the other gives you the tools to do anything you choose to.

Nope...no relevant comparison whatsoever.