Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Prometheus]

wouldn't it be much more logical for Rudy to just wait and watch the front door and wait for everybody to leave. he knows all the women who live there and he probably could have found out from the drug guys downstairs who was leaving that weekend and who was sticking around. i'd have a hard time breaking into a house that I was not 100 percent positive nobody was in, and the idea that the rock was used partly to make a noise on purpose to wake them up seems unlikely b/c he had to break into the house sometime b/t 8-10 pm that night it would seem and thus nobody would even been asleep and what if they are listening to music or the television real loud and just don't hear the rock breaking the glass?

also, it doesn't make any sense to me that somehow a large rock breaking glass is going to sound louder than a smaller rock breaking glass. breaking glass sounds like breaking glass. in fact, a rock that is moving at a higher velocity, thus a lighter rock, is going to break the glass in a much more violent way than a larger rock moving more slowly would. Maybe the louder rock crashing into the room would be louder than the a smaller rock crashing into the room but I would think it would be the sound of the glass shattering that alarm people most and it would be louder than the sound than a rock landing in the room. given people here have claimed that a 10 lb rock isn't really that big, which is true, if gravity forces are not at play, one cannot logically argue that the sound of a 10 lb rock would be much louder than the sound of a 3 lb rock as it tumbles through the window onto the floor.

I'm not speaking to what Rudy may or may not have done in this case. I'm just pointing out that what seems logical to you is, in fact, not necessarily what makes sense to a professional burlar. Note also that there's no reason to assume that a burglar who behaves this way would ever have actually done proper tests to measure the relative noise created by lighter/heavier objects. It's enough that many burglars believe a heavier object is a better choice for their purposes. But as long as we're speculating with nothing really to go on, a heavy rock is a lot more likely to do additional damage besides just breaking a pane of glass, thus more noise. Also the breaking glass sound is a lot less audible to someone several rooms away, where as a heavy rock produces a lower frequency sound which travels through walls/floors more noticeably.

Regardless, I don't see much in evidence to suggest that Rudy would be likely to think one way or another on the matter, so all of this conjecture is completely useless to anyone attempting to analyze the actual evidence available.

 

[Kaosium]

the defense lawyers have said that nobody ever hit Knox at the police station. It's my understanding they never filed any kind of complaint about the police at all in both Knox's and Raffe's case. that's curious if there is proof the police behaved badly.

Show me a quote that the defense lawyers said that. I think you have that entirely mixed up.

As for the complaint, as PM of Perugia Mignini was required to investigate that as a result of the note written on the sixth. He cleared the police (and himself) of any wrongdoing. That sure works out nicely for them all!

Amanda, in response to a direct question, told the Court what happened during the interrogation. Months later, right before the verdict (Dec '09), they chose to file charges against her and her family who'd said something about what happened to her during the interrogation to John Follain from their Seattle home in an article published in June of '08.

 

[Kaosium]

I was just thinking that a 10 lb rock is going to be pretty heavy to throw up 10-13 feet. think about a 10 lb dumbbell at the gym. I can't hardly lift one or two llbs after 20 repetitions right now due to the fact I fractured and dislocated my shoulder a year ago so I got a unique appreciation for 10 lbs. the idea of zipping a 10 lb rock up to a window high above you at such a velocity that it breaks the window seems inconceivable.

as such, as much as this pains me, I must conclude poor, poor Rudy Guede did not enter the house through that window.

Are you suggesting the rock was thrown from inside? How come it has that glass shard embedded in (the outside of) the inner shutter, amongst a plethora of indications that the rock came from the outside?

If you're staging a break in just how stupid is it to break the window from the inside anyway? Break the window, then run outside, or run outside then break the window and slip out into the foliage?

 

[Dan O.]

As a mechanical engineer, I'm little bit of an expert on Newton's laws of motion. I told you those appeal to authority arguments were annoying. now you are reaping what you have sowed. LOL

I may misunderstand your argument here but you appear not to understand what I'm saying. I'm saying the external shutters were closed or mostly closed (Filo testified to closing the external shutters most of the way but not all the way due to expansion of the wet wood). so when the window was smashed from inside the room, the external shutters prevented any of the glass from falling to the yard below and in fact prevented any glass found on the windowsill from moving past the point where the external shutters would be when closed or partially closed.

there would have definitely been glass in the yard from both the rock being thrown and the intruder knocking it off the windowsill by accident or on purpose as he did his balancing act to reach up and open the window. if he didn't brush off the sill you'd kind of expect that he would have cut himself or left some dna on the sharp shards of glass ast his knee rested on the glass on the windowsill.

Double LOL. A mechanical engineer with zero spatial skills. Where's your dimensional drawing of the window? Did you miss where I asked about dimensions earlier? That's fundamental information you need before you can go off speculating what happened.

 

[Kaosium]

I thought the stinky stuff came out of his mouth.

It just emanates from him.

Good to see you posting here again!

 

[Dan O.]

Dan O.

How much damage was done to the inside of the outside shutters when the rock was thrown from the inside?

To tell the truth, I haven't seen any photos showing rock damage to the outside shutter

Though maybe it's time to revisit the window photos again now that we have copies of the originals. There may be some details that were missed looking at the compressed clippings.

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi all,
though the surf is pumping today here in L.A.
I still like-ta learn stuff...

Today I learned this,
just from reading,
+re-re-reading,
here on the JREF:


Hmmmm,
The cops in Perugia do not,
apparently, know when or how to test an incarerated suspect for hard drug useage....

Cops in Perugia, Italy do not know how to count the rings on a sneaker...

Cops in Perugia, Italy do not check to see if a person is dead,
when found. Or do they???

A PM does not know that it is very, very important to take the body temp of a decendant immediately...

An Italian DNA expert does not know that you store crucial evidence in a paper envelope, not plastic...

A buncha investigators do not understand that you need to have clean gloves if you go to retreive evidence 46 or so days later...

I'm tired,
the surf has been pumping today,
tomorrow looks great!!!



Anyone else wanna chime in,
ya know, to give those lurkers some more info about how bad the Italian cops goofed up in this terribly tragic case we discuss???

I look forward to readin' your postings,
once more, tomorrow...
Adios, friends...
RW

 

[RandyN]

[qimg]http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/hendry10.jpg[/qimg]

Huh...I wonder if he notices the glass pushed to one side of that window sill? I bet I can hit that car with a 10 lb rock ....easy.

Do you think he will show us evidence of damage to the inner side of the outer shutter? I bet he doesnt.

He cant really be a mechanical engineer. I mean how does a mechanical engineer fail to understand the basic laws of motion? Rock launched from parking lot...an easy lob of less than 10 feet...looks like 5 feet actually...and then this rock breaks thru and pushes the glass in what direction? Towards the outside? Thats insane...and against the basic laws of motion. The glass would be pushed in the direction of the motion of the rock...in fact almost impossible for glass to fall outside...although some did fall down onto the sill because the rock was slowed a bit by the closed inner shutter...nice fresh nick exactly where the rock hit the outer side of the inner shutter... and even a piece of glass driven into the inner shutter wood.

OK so tell us more about this J vector...sounds like BS vector to me.

Your arguments are recycled long ago disposed rumor and conjecture of the lying head of the prosecution Zero Mignini. Dumb argument...mechanical engineer claiming the rock is thrown from inside to the outside. You argument reminds me of the style of guilter The Machine or Harry Rag or Kermit...illogical lies that ignore facts and depend on a gullible and not too intelligent audience...

J vector...lol. Good one.

 

[anglolawyer]

So if someone is informed of the facts and don't agree with you they're unintelligent?

Let's leave intelligence out of it for the moment. I am making a serious point. PGPs are ignorant, some of them wilfully. They prove it on this thread everyday. They are also intellectually dishonest. Ditto. They suffer from a blind spot where weight is concerned. As in weight of evidence, or evaluation. Some just cannot weigh evidence reasonably and some have switched off their evaluation function because they get a kick out of hating. There's no need to give any examples. Just read the thread.

 

[DrTesla]

Are you suggesting the rock was thrown from inside? How come it has that glass shard embedded in (the outside of) the inner shutter, amongst a plethora of indications that the rock came from the outside?

If you're staging a break in just how stupid is it to break the window from the inside anyway? Break the window, then run outside, or run outside then break the window and slip out into the foliage?

there is no evidence that the rock came from the outside, please review my previous posts in which I talked about no glass being found on the ground outside and the glass on the windowsill did not move pass the boundary of the external shutters when in the closed or mostly closed position, which coincides with Filo's testimony that she closed them most of the way before she left.

It would seem to me to be stupid to break the window from the outside, in the sense that you can't have anybody see you doing that if the whole idea is to stage it so that Rudy did it. they be putting themselves at a huge risk of having multiple witnesses see them throw a rock at the window (which if you think about it, and I have, is why Rudy also would not have thrown a rock at this window) so, they must have smashed in from the inside.

 

[RandyN]

They may just be fools. Their honorary president is a Truther. I kid you not.

Thats true...and for the mechanical engineers here who may not be up on what a truther is...the head of the Italian SC believes 911 was a US government planed operation...they painted jets to appear to be commercial and flew them into the twin towers remotely.

I wonder how they explain the missing passengers from the actual jets that crashed into the buildings...sent off to Costa Rica I suppose.

 

[anglolawyer]

To tell the truth, I haven't seen any photos showing rock damage to the outside shutter

Though maybe it's time to revisit the window photos again now that we have copies of the originals. There may be some details that were missed looking at the compressed clippings.

You and Grinder clearly haven't been following. The rock was thrown, or swung, from the inside against the open left pane thus making the dent in the open white shutter behind it. When it is pointed out that this doesn't explain the glass sprayed far into the room - crickets. Unintelligent, intellectually dishonest, ill-informed. Take your pick.

The solution is easy enough, they just haven't thought of it. Amanda, in her bare feet, spread the glass out herself to make it look like the rock had been thrown from outside, making sure that the smaller pieces travelled furthest, but she wasn't that smart. She forgot to chuck a few pieces out the window to satisfy all the engineers who think there should be glass there.

 

[anglolawyer]

Explain the glass

Should be interesting.

 

[RandyN]

there is no evidence that the rock came from the outside, please review my previous posts in which I talked about no glass being found on the ground outside and the glass on the windowsill did not move pass the boundary of the external shutters when in the closed or mostly closed position, which coincides with Filo's testimony that she closed them most of the way before she left.

It would seem to me to be stupid to break the window from the outside, in the sense that you can't have anybody see you doing that if the whole idea is to stage it so that Rudy did it. they be putting themselves at a huge risk of having multiple witnesses see them throw a rock at the window. so, they must have smashed in from the inside.

You have to be lying...about being a mechanical engineer who understands the basic laws of physics. Why please explain about these laws that cause glass to reverse direction and fall outside as a rock passes thru the window from outside to inside. Or in lieu of that then provide evidence this 10 lb rock was stopped by the outer shutter. A fresh dent in the rotting swollen wood, bits of glass imbedded into the inside of the outer shutter. You do understand there are two sets of shutters on this window right? Inside shutters and outside shutters... your argument lacks logic and puts in doubt your ability to understand basic mechanical principles. Did you look at Grinders photo? No words are necessary....that pic alone disputes your whole window argument.

Stop ignoring the facts we are providing for you. You say the toss is impossible and we show you pic that shows it to be a relatively easy toss...you can do better.

 

[DrTesla]

Huh...I wonder if he notices the glass pushed to one side of that window sill? I bet I can hit that car with a 10 lb rock ....easy.

Do you think he will show us evidence of damage to the inner side of the outer shutter? I bet he doesnt.

He cant really be a mechanical engineer. I mean how does a mechanical engineer fail to understand the basic laws of motion? Rocked launched from parking lot...an easy lob of less than 10 feet...looks like 5 feet actually...and then this rock breaks thru and pushes the glass in what direction? Towards the outside? Thats insane...and against the basic laws of motion. The glass would be pushed in the direction of the motion of the rock...in fact almost impossible for glass to fall outside...although some did fall down onto the sill because the rock was slowed a bit by the closed inner shutter...nice fresh nick exactly where the rock hit the outer side of the inner shutter... and even a piece of glass driven into the inner shutter wood.

OK so tell us more about this J vector...sounds like BS vector to me.

Your arguments are recycled long ago disposed rumor and conjecture of the lying head of the prosecution Zero Mignini. Dumb argument...mechanical engineer claiming the rock is thrown from inside to the outside. You argument reminds me of the style of guilter The Machine or Harry Rag or Kermit...illogical lies that ignore facts and depend on a gullible and too intelligent audience...

J vector...lol. Good one.

A position vector or a velocity vector or any kind of vector has a horizontal component, the i vector and a vertical component, the j vector. It was my impression that we all had taken at least a high school physics class where this topic was covered b/c it's impossible to advance to understanding statics, dynamics, mechanics of materials, fluid mechanics, and machine design if we do not establish a good understanding of vectors in a introductory physics class.

The squareroot of the sum of the squares of the i and j vectors is equal to the magnitude of the postion vector, force vector or the velocity vector or any vector.

Remember this information for it could be useful at any time when analyzing the motion of a projectile.

Clearly the position vector for this rock throw must have had an i vector and a j vector given that the rock was able to move through the window glass after impact on into the room and given the throw was most likely launched from the yard below to the window at 10-13 feet above. I would estimate a throwing angle, in relation the ground, with the intruder obviously facing the house, as being from 45 to 60 degrees.

What we now need to establish is what would be an reasonable minmum impact velocity that the rock must achieve to break the glass. we need to find information on the type of window glass used and see if there is an established "shatter velocity" range for it. that can help us "reverse engineer" using Newton's laws of motion for a projectile to calculate both the distance from the house of the intruder throwing the rock and the velocity of the rock as it leave his hand. we can use both of these numbers to see if the throw was even possible, could Rudy have thrown it from x distance from the house at y velocity and it impact the window at z velocity such that it would shatter based on what we find for "shatter velocity" of the window, which we may even have to test ourselves if we can a hold of the window glass used in this house at the time and throw rocks at it using a device that measures the impact velocity. and if this theoretical throw was not possible, a violation of the laws of physics if you will, we must rule out Rudy as the burglar, and since Knox did not let Rudy in that night, then we must start to look at who broke into this house, if we stipulate the defense is right about everything else and that somebody must have come through that window, b/c Knox and Raffe were not there.

if we rule Rudy out as the intruder through the window, we must think about why the REAL intruder that night would want to plant Rudy's crap in the toilet, his blood and semen on the body of the victim, etc.

 

[PhantomWolf]

To tell the truth, the bra clasp I have no real answer for, while I do not even remotely believe in contamination, regardless of the time before it was collected the only other answer for me is that Raff ripped the bra off, not during the murder because I don't believe he was there, so why he did that later, I don't know, perhaps he's sicker than we thought.

Sherlock, if Raff tore off MK's bra, then why was Rudy's DNA the one found on the strap where it would have been pulled from, and why is there evidence that MK was still alive when the bra was removed? Also, if Raff pulled the bra off, how did his DNA get on the metal hooks that would have been inside the bra rather than the material he would have been holding?

 

[Antony]

To tell the truth, the bra clasp I have no real answer for, while I do not even remotely believe in contamination, regardless of the time before it was collected

Sherlock, why won't you believe in contamination? Presumably you have seen the video of how this item was collected - apart from the other breaches of forensic practice on show, and their play-acting betraying the fact that they had an agenda, there is the shot of the investigator brandishing the clasp for the camera, and holding it by the metal hook that was later claimed to carry Raff's DNA. Where had this glove been before the video was made?

The entirety of the actions shown in the video, let alone the undocumented chain of custody of the clasp, invalidate any conclusions that can be made about the testing of it.

the only other answer for me is that Raff ripped the bra off, not during the murder because I don't believe he was there, so why he did that later, I don't know, perhaps he's sicker than we thought.

Kindly explain how this action would result in his DNA becoming attached to the metal hook, and nowhere on the fabric of the bra. Of all the possible explanations for the DNA reading, involvement in the murder or fixing of the crime-scene is the least likely. The same applies to the claimed DNA on the kitchen knife.

 

[PhantomWolf]

To tell the truth, the bra clasp I have no real answer for, while I do not even remotely believe in contamination

Sorry I should have added this into the last post.

Why would you not believe that the Bra Clasp was contaminated? It had more donors than just MK and RS on it, so unless you are going to claim that all of the donors touched the hooks of MK's bra there has to have been contamination in some form. Whether or not you believe that RS's DNA got there via contamination is one thing, but to deny that there was contamination at all is just denying reality.

 

[Antony]

I've never got around to letting you know how much I've enjoyed reading your posts, Monsieur Antony.

So I'm doing it now.

Thanks for this endorsement. For a time recently, it seemed like everybody was ignoring what I posted.

Actually, I don't claim to be as well-versed in the case as others such as Dan O and Charlie Wilkes, and I am one of those getting much of my understanding of it from other posters on these discussions. Having said that, my experience is that facts posted by supporters of Amanda and Raffaele have generally turned out to true at every turn, while the claims of their accusers have turned out to be unsupported.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

no I have not made it over to Italy yet to survey this site, I've been putting it off. I intend to check it out in a few years when I visit the Butcher of Perugia Amanda Knox in jail to make sure she has access to her vibrator, given what we know about political brutality there.

do you know, by chance, at what distance this horizontal ground is from the window that Rudy broke into?

I'm trying to lead a horse to water here.

Look, why don't you go back to this post and have a look at the photo for a bit.

Now imagine that this is a photo of the window we are all talking about, viewed from inside the house. Imagine that the flat area outside the window at about the same height as the floor, which the cars are parked on, is representative of the kind of place someone like Rudy might throw a rock from.

Does this lead you to revise your opinion about what angle someone like Rudy might have thrown a rock, how far they might have needed to throw it, and how plausible it is that they chose to do so?