Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Kaosium]

From my favorite website, murder of Meredith kercher.com:

A popular defence against the claim that the footprints were made in blood is that Luminol also fluoresces with sprayed on some substances other than blood. The reason the Luminol is useful to crime scene reconstruction rests on the fact that the substances that cause false positives are typically not found at crime scenes and in the cases of substances such as some brands of enamel paint the false positive is easy to detect because the reaction is not limited to a blood deposit pattern but covers the entire affected surface. In our case the Luminol reaction were in the shape of feet with three of the traces having succinct details to identify them as footprints compatible with Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. The footprints were also limited to the part of the corridor between Meredith and Amanda's room and were not found anywhere else in the cottage. This would allow us to eliminate reactions to paint or to terracotta or ceramic elements in the tile

Tesla, TMB doesn't give false negatives, not really, it's a natural chemical reaction that occurs, if it didn't happen every time it would be worthless as a detector of blood. What the prosecution claimed after being caught lying was that it was diluted to the extreme that TMB couldn't detect it, but that's why it showed up with luminol. However at this point you have to realize they are not contending blood they're claiming that something (probably water--can't think of anything else) got a few drops of blood in it and it was spread around the house. That could have happened at any time before or after the murder and there's utterly no reason to think they all happened at the same time, or that they were all the same substance. One thing however is clear: the absolute most it could be is water (or whatever) that had a few drops of blood in it.

 

[Dan O.]

First he has to climb up and open the outer shutters, then throw a 10 pound rock thru the window that not only breaks the window but also forces the inner shutters open, after that he climbs up and while balancing on the sill manages to open the window by reaching thru a broken pane of glass all without leaving any finger prints , DNA or disturbing the glass, but then we know he's a basketball player and apparently they have superpowers.

Deal with reality. The window was broken. The evidence is 100% compatible with it being broken by a rock thrown through from the outside. We've been over this before discussing all the details of the glass spread into the room all the way to the nightstand, the damage to the inner shutter, the rock inside the room in a bag, the defense demonstration video, that burglars often wear gloves to protect their hands and keep from leaving fingerprints and that the breakin fits an overall scenario that is internally consistent. If you disagree then offer an alternative scenario so we can compare the details and attempt to reach a better understanding of what happened.

Since you have been following this thread for a long time you should have already moved beyond this by now. One of these days the moderators will get there act together and realize that this kind of childish behavior of simply repeating claims is only intended to disrupt the thread and prevent the discussion from moving forward.

 

[RWVBWL]

High on heroin???

"The scream at 23.00 was AK seeing the body for the first time."

But alas the tow truck driver hooking up the car just outside the cottage didn't hear it.

So, what time was that screamed heard then, I was under the impression it was between 11:00 and 11:30 but she really wasn't sure. Tow truck was there till about 11:15 I believe, Amanda and Raff were in the court waiting for Rudi and the broken down car to leave, Toto is not entirely sure exactly when they left other than it was before he himself left, he didn't see them go, just noticed they were no longer there when he left.

Hi all,
Wasn't Toto,
(ya know, Antonio Curatolo,
the park bum who had already testified in 2 previous murder trials,
and who had a police bust for dealing hard drugs hangin' over his head for some 7 years,)
high on heroin the night Miss Kercher had her throat cut?


How does any pro-guilt person believe anything that bum said?

 

[Kaosium]

First he has to climb up and open the outer shutters, then throw a 10 pound rock thru the window that not only breaks the window but also forces the inner shutters open, after that he climbs up and while balancing on the sill manages to open the window by reaching thru a broken pane of glass all without leaving any finger prints , DNA or disturbing the glass, but then we know he's a basketball player and apparently they have superpowers.

What's so difficult about that for a burglar and how long do you think it would take?

 

[Kaosium]

A reading of Halides1's recent posts would be quite instructive for those who are confused about the luminol hits and what the prosecution said in court.

 

[Kaosium]

I would say it is possible, indeed probable, that this was very funny.

You know what's even funnier? After the defense questioned it, he could say it was presumed blood because it was brown like many blood stains.


Oh, and fecal matter lights up luminol....

String 'em up!

 

[tsig]

Maybe he had to climb once to open the shutters, but maybe they had blown open by then. Filomena's original statement was that she was not sure that she had closed them. Big deal, either way. A retired ballistics guy does an actual experiment to show how the rock was thrown, whereas Massei just speculated without citing any trials. Either the glass was broken from a rock thrown from the outside, or it was broken as Massei suggested. They are not going to give identical distributions of glass (different momentum, different position of the window relative to the room). Which is more likely?

Nobody ever climbed thru the window to prove it could be done.

Why didn't the defense have someone actually do what they said could be done?

 

[tsig]

Why don't we see what they have to say before making that decision?

Did you miss the fact that they tossed the Hellman verdict?

 

[DrTesla]

What's so hard about throwing a 10lb rock 10 feet?

if you are throwing a rock almost directly up , it has the gravitional force vector pulling it down in the opposite direction of the path of motion required. every pound increase in the rock you select is essentially a multiplier of the gravitational force working on the rock which would just be making the task of breaking the window more difficult than necessary.

it would make much more sense to use a lighter rock, especially if you must aim to hit the window. A man could probably hoist a 10 lb rock up there but just seems more likely you would use a lighter rock given all you are trying to do is break glass. the key is more velocity to break the glass and a 10 lb rock simply isn't going to be moving as fast as a lighter rock at that height


If there is a 10 lb rock outside in the yard one would think smaller rocks were available.

given that Raffe was too wimpy to break down the victim's flimsy bedroom door that Filo's stud boyfriend swatted down like it was saren wrap, how can we just assume that this little wimpy spoiled brat could hoist a 10 lb rock at the house? He also had to get far enough away from the house that the throwing angle not only allowed for the rock to break the window but to crash through into the bedroom, which I didn't really even consider in my previous analysis, so the rock had to travel a good little ways in the horizontal direction in addition to the 10-13 feet in the vertical. I just don't this little wimpy drugged out boy could have managed this. Maybe Knox b/c she is kind of manly in some ways. we should also consider that certain drugs can give people superhuman strength.

 

[Bill Williams]

First he has to climb up and open the outer shutters, then throw a 10 pound rock thru the window that not only breaks the window but also forces the inner shutters open, after that he climbs up and while balancing on the sill manages to open the window by reaching thru a broken pane of glass all without leaving any finger prints , DNA or disturbing the glass, but then we know he's a basketball player and apparently they have superpowers.

What's so difficult about that for a burglar and how long do you think it would take?

At least tsig is not going all fanicful on us and quoting from some hate site. He/she's basically quoting from Massei's motivations report, except Massei never did conclude that it would take "superpowers" to do it. Massei simply said that no one would do this climb three times.

In Guede's previous burglaries, there is no data at all how many times he had to climb to successfully get in. But the point is that the climb is eminently doable. The glass was, in fact, spewed into the room as one would expect and the rock was found in the room as one would expect.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

trajectory

Nobody ever climbed thru the window to prove it could be done.

Why didn't the defense have someone actually do what they said could be done?

Micheli acknowledged it would not take a spiderman. No one ever broke the window the way Massei surmised. Do you think that Massei was correct, or that Sgt. Pasquali was correct?

 

[Kaosium]

Nobody ever climbed thru the window to prove it could be done.


Why didn't the defense have someone actually do what they said could be done?

It never occurred to them that anyone would think a burglar would have difficulty entering the window after seeing this picture?

Incidentally, this contention didn't even make it past Micheli in the pre-trial.

 

[DrTesla]

I think the last poll here at JREF showed 70% guilt.

so I am responsible for movement from 70% guilty to 90% guilt amongst our lurkers, the lifeblood of this forum? I'll take it.

it's kind of interesting there is a polarized discrepancy b/t what the majority of people who comment think (she's innocent) and the people who lurk. heaven forbid that I suggest this, but is it possible that they are not as persuasive as they think? heavens to betsy. that seems outlandish to even ponder for a second. LOL

I am happy that I've been able to give the little people out there a voice for their beliefs.

 

[Dan O.]

it's my understanding the rock is a good 10 lbs, and given the window was at least 10 feet from the release point of somebody throwing it, it doesn't make much sense that the rock was thrown from the outside.

Maybe it's that you just don't have any outside experience.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_put

there was also no glass in the yard below which you would expect if a rock was thrown at the window. you'd also expect the intruder to knock some of the glass off the windowsill by accident, or on purpose, b/c he was going to have to rest his knee on that windowsill to reach the latch to open the window.

How would you prove that there was no glass in the yard below? What proof did the prosecution offer? Do you know how high that latch was? I'd you don't actually have the measurements, how can you presume to know what would be required? How could we go about determining the measurements of that window?

it appears the window was smashed from the inside because none of the glass on the windowsill moved outside of where the external shutters would be when closed or partially closed.

If this was your argument then you would have thought about the precise details of how the breakin was staged in a way that accounts for the exact state that the room was found in the next day. I don't however think that this is your argument because we have seen exactly the same argument repeated numerous times. What the author of this argument fails to account for is amoung other things, that with the shutter closed it's not possible to throw the rock through in the direction that would cause the glass to spread into the room.

 

[GWCarver]

Hi all,
Wasn't Toto,
(ya know, Antonio Curatolo,
the park bum who had already testified in 2 previous murder trials,
and who had a police bust for dealing hard drugs hangin' over his head for some 7 years,)
high on heroin the night Miss Kercher had her throat cut?


How does any pro-guilt person believe anything that bum said?

Speaking of drugs, given the ferocity of the attack on Meredith, does anyone know if there was any kind of a tox screen done on Guede, or any investigation into whether or not he was involved in drugs during the period leading up to the murder?

 

[Kaosium]

so I am responsible for movement from 70% guilty to 90% guilt amongst our lurkers, the lifeblood of this forum? I'll take it.

it's kind of interesting there is a polarized discrepancy b/t what the majority of people who comment think (she's innocent) and the people who lurk. heaven forbid that I suggest this, but is it possible that they are not as persuasive as they think? heavens to betsy. that seems outlandish to even ponder for a second. LOL

I am happy that I've been able to give the little people out there a voice for their beliefs.

That wasn't true, the poll Tsig was referring to was in May of '10, and less than 50% of respondents thought them guilty despite the verdict six months before.

Before the acquittal almost 70% voted that they would be acquitted.

 

[DrTesla]

If this was your argument then you would have thought about the precise details of how the breakin was staged in a way that accounts for the exact state that the room was found in the next day. I don't however think that this is your argument because we have seen exactly the same argument repeated numerous times. What the author of this argument fails to account for is amoung other things, that with the shutter closed it's not possible to throw the rock through in the direction that would cause the glass to spread into the room.

As a mechanical engineer, I'm little bit of an expert on Newton's laws of motion. I told you those appeal to authority arguments were annoying. now you are reaping what you have sowed. LOL

I may misunderstand your argument here but you appear not to understand what I'm saying. I'm saying the external shutters were closed or mostly closed (Filo testified to closing the external shutters most of the way but not all the way due to expansion of the wet wood). so when the window was smashed from inside the room, the external shutters prevented any of the glass from falling to the yard below and in fact prevented any glass found on the windowsill from moving past the point where the external shutters would be when closed or partially closed.

there would have definitely been glass in the yard from both the rock being thrown and the intruder knocking it off the windowsill by accident or on purpose as he did his balancing act to reach up and open the window. if he didn't brush off the sill you'd kind of expect that he would have cut himself or left some dna on the sharp shards of glass ast his knee rested on the glass on the windowsill.

 

[RWVBWL]

Friends...

LOL!!!
doc,
please allow me to refresh your mind..

You write:

don't friends typically hang out socially?
I don't get the impression these two ever hanged out socially.

Really?
Meredith,
without her English friends, went out with her friend Amanda to a concert, (no dude, not a punk show, nor a heavy metal gig, heck not even a reggae show, but a classical music concert just a week before she was murdered by Rudy Guede).
Get it?
Meredith enjoyed hangin' out with Amanda...


Hey doc,
do you go to concerts with people you hate?
Or are jealous of? Or whom you can not stand to be around?

 

[RWVBWL]

Friends?...

don't friends typically hang out socially?
I don't get the impression these two ever hanged out socially.

Hey tes,
Just for you, bud and those Silent Lurkers,
as I really wanna help you understand that Meredith Kerecher+Amanda Knox were indeed friends, here's another tid-bit:

On the evening of October 30, Meredith, along with a couple of her English gal pals, Amanda and Raffaele shared a liter of white house wine at La Tana Dell'Orso, one of the few above-ground bars in Perugia, which claimed to have "Perugia's best wine selection"...
Enough said, doc...
RW

 

[Grinder]

Dan O.

How much damage was done to the inside of the outside shutters when the rock was thrown from the inside?