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Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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There is a min version, what evidence does not fit into that?

Oh for crap's sake. Your story is that Amanda has seen her friend and roommate murdered by someone she knew either barely or not at all, and instead of running to save her own life and pounding on the nearest door, or running to a phone and dialing the Italian equivalent of 911, she went to her boyfriend and said "Hmm, what should we do?" And instead of calling 911 himself -- or his sister, the POLICE OFFICER -- he said, "Hmm, I dunno, let's go take a look." Meanwhile, Guede knows that a woman WHO CAN IDENTIFY HIM -- and has absolutely no reason to protect him -- has witnessed him commit a murder, and he either allows her to leave or goes away and leaves her behind? And all this is over someone using the toilet? And during days of brutal interrogation neither Amanda nor Raffaele says a word about Guede? Does any of this comport with what we know about how human beings think and behave in the world?

I was trying to imagine a more ridiculous story. But it involves space aliens and teleportation.
 
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What's in a name? I can only think of one poster here that has actually met Amanda and that would only have happened after her release. So why do you insist on casting such a wide FOA brush?

As for changing minds, it was generally assumed that the bra clasp had been cut to remove the bra. That's what the prosecution was testifying to and that's what the press was reporting. I accepted it myself and even wrote a couple of scenarios where the knife is used to cut the band. But then when better evidence became available I started to reanalyze the clasp in detail. I closely examined the best resolution photographs of the clasp and the bra. I researched how bras are constructed. And all the evidence showed that nothing had been cut.

I then looked at what action would result in the bra unraveling like that. The right strap had unstitched from the back band. In order to pull these apart, the band needs to be grasped below the right shoulder and pulled out and down (relative to a person standing). This just happens to be the same direction needed to pull when Meredith is lying on her left shoulder facing the side of the wardrobe to get her to the center of the room where she was found. The DNA evidence on the bra even tells us who it was that pulled on the band to move Meredith. Rudy Guede's abundant DNA was found on the right band.

As for who else changed their mind when presented with this evidence, That would be just about every one of the regular posters here. There are of course the occasional staunch defenders of the status quo who maintain rigid irrational beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence because that is what some authority said and the righteous authorities can never be questioned.

I'm with you Dan. I started to investigate this case assuming that the evidence of the couple's guilt would be self evident after a little reading. I spent a lot of time reading details of the murder at TJMK and PMF.

I wouldn't call me a hard core guilter or PGP, but it certainly seemed like they were guilty to me at that time. There was Raffaele calling the Carabineiri after the Postal police arrived, there was the couple supposedly cleaning up the murder, the staging, the buying of bleach at the store. There were the witnesses, there was the Luminol footprints and Raffaele's footprint on the bathmat and then there was the knife and bra clasp.

I do admit however to rejecting the interrogation statements almost immediately. First the statements were incredibly unclear and didn't fit the facts of the crime. I mean you can't just swap Rudy for Patrick because it pleases you. It was also very clear to me that Amanda never wrote that statement. As a graduate from a prestigious prep school in Seattle as well as a student studying creative writing at the UW, it was far too stilted to have been written by her. I decided that from then on I'd ignore the statements and focus on the circumstantial and physical evidence.

Then it turned out that Raffaele actually call the Carabineiri BEFORE the Postal Police arrived. Then after looking at a lot of the photos and reading more, it became clear that there was no cleanup. Then the story of the bleach turned out to be bogus. Well...ok.. I just chalked that up to the media being full of it..and repeating rumors...it doesn't mean that A and R weren't guilty.

After all, how do you explain Raffaele's bloody footprint on the bathmat? Wasn't that incriminating? I mean an expert attributed it to Raffaele...right?? Well that is true..a so called expert did. But another expert said no..it was Rudy's!!! I'd just have to look at it myself and make my own decision. I probably stared at that picture with my screen blown up to the best possible resolution for hours and what I determined is that they were both full of crap. It might be Raffaele's, it also might be Rudy's, it also might be thousands, even millions of people's footprint. While I think you could use this footprint to eliminate a suspect, it is worthless for positive attribution....Scratch the bathmat footprint.

What about the Luminol footprints in the hallway and in Amanda's room? Aren't those proof of Amanda walking around in Meredith's blood? Surely that is damning!!!! Well you would think that, but if you look at these footprints...NONE are in Meredith's room!!! So what does that tell you? Anything? Did Amanda watch or as Mignini hypothesizes, direct the murder from the hallway?? (I didn't and don't buy this) I have hypothesized that Amanda took a shower the next morning and there was dried blood on the shower floor that transferred to the bottom of Amanda's feet and this is a record of Amanda the next morning, not the previous evening.

Then I read about Luminol and I found out that it actually isn't conclusive proof of blood at all, but a presumptive test for blood. Luminol actually reacts to all kinds of substances including fruit juices, bleach, anything with Iron in it..in fact iron is the reason it reacts to blood since Luminol is reacting to the iron in the red blood cells. I then find out that the tech Stefanoni also performed another test (TMB) on the Luminol footprints to see if they were blood and that came back NEGATIVE.
Scratch the Luminol bare footprints as evidence of anything.

What about the knife? Surely the DNA on that is incriminating as hell...right?? Well, as it turns out. NO. The knife doesn't appear to have made any of the wounds and doesn't match the knife stain on the sheet. Then you add in how this knife was supposedly carried back and forth to the crime scene..which, let's be honest, is absurd. Then you read about how Stefanoni seemed to have broken every laboratory rule and protocol and then how the court appointed DNA experts tore this apart and I have to scratch the knife.

The bra clasp. I saw the video of the Lab technicians collecting this piece of evidence and passing it back and forth and making a big show about it and then putting it back on the floor. That made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Scratch the bra clasp. In fact it was that moment that made me think of police corruption. All I could think was...why did they make a show of picking up this single piece of evidence?

The witnesses: What can you say about the witnesses? First, eyewitnesses are the worst kind of evidence. At night, in the dark, even if they saw something, is it really reasonable that they can identify any one reliably? I've seen lots of social experiment about the eyewitnesses and they are notoriously bad. Now, who saw or heard what? Curatolo? A drug addled homeless guy who can't tell Halloween from November 1st and is contradicted by the Kiosk owners. Quintavalle, the store owner who came forward a year later at the urgings of a reporter a year later who said he saw Amanda waiting the next morning to get in the store and then came in and went to the cleaning area and then left without buying anything? Never mind that contradicts what he told detectives days after the murder and never mind his own employees contradict him. Nara, who says she heard a scream and people running away in the middle of the night who says it was about 11:30 (but never looked at a clock) never mind she was three floors up and hearing through double pane windows. The guys who's car broke down across the street from the cottage who hear nothing unusual? Where do the witnesses leave you? NOWHERE!!! Scratch the witnesses.


You see Sherlock, I don't know Amanda, I don't know Raffaele. I'm not a member of FOA. But if I knew what I know now 4 years ago, I'm sure I would be one. When I first started to investigate this case I fully expected to be persuaded in Amanda's and Raffaele's guilt. It was the overwhelming lack of evidence that has persuaded me of their innocence. I've read about just every single piece of evidence that people such as yourself think to be incriminating and I've come to the conclusion that the evidence has just as likely a innocent interpretation as a guilty one and therefore it would be UNFAIR to seize upon the guilty explanation.
 
I'll back up just a bit, Amanda and Raff, by 8:45 had already eaten, had the spill (water), found out she didn't have to work, and by shutting her phone off, would not be called in had it got busy, already watched the movie and Raff was now free from his midnight engagement. It was a Friday night and being students, they had the whole weekend off. Amanda went home to get that mop she talked so much about, no need to wait til morning now that was free, and I bet to change from her work cloths into her going out cloths.
She met Rudi at the basketball court on her way home, they had met before and Rudi had said he liked Amanda so I'm sure they talked. Rudi had to use a washroom and Amanda knew were one was close by. When they get there, again, not sure if Meredith was already there or came shortly after. The argument started with Meredith over Rudi being there and escalated to the point where Rudi came running out of the washroom and attacked Meredith, who ran to her room. Amanda stayed in the kitchen and had to cover her ears at one point to drown out Meredith's scream. Amanda then ran to Raff's to tell him what had happened, I'm sure she had no idea a murder and rape was taking place, likely just an assault. Amanda and Raff returned, with the biggest knife he had in his drawer, Amanda stayed outside, Raff went in and confronted Rudi in the living room, had a few words and ran out of there with Amanda that Rudi saw thru Filomena's window. They walked to the court and sat by a bench where they could keep an eye out for when Rudi left, they also saw the broken down car and waited until it left before they went back. When they returned, they found Meredith's body, Amanda screamed 'the scream' heard at 11:00 to 11:30
They go back to Raff's and decide what to do next, they should have called the police but, being stoned, being just kids and being scared to death, Amanda being somewhat involved, they plan what they will do. Lock Meredith's door, put the Dubai over the body, stage a break in and plan Saturday and how the body will be discovered.
There is a min version, what evidence does not fit into that?
Well, for one thing, it was a Thursday night ... :)

There are two things wrong with it. First it fails the BS test. That is, it is an inherently incredible story in which everybody behaves in a totally irrational way. Second, it depends on evidence that is unreliable. Apart from that, it's fine.

I like the part where Amanda leaves Meredith alone and screaming (nobody heard that one, did they?) then Raf arms himself to the teeth but when he gets there he just has a quiet word and runs out again. Why not just call the police?

And then, despite being totally innocent, they embark on the staged burglary, staged sexual assault and clean up and then they spend four years in prison never fingering Rudy in all that time. Rudy, undeterred by being identified ab initio as the killer, still steals and tosses the phones and hangs around in Perugia waiting to be arrested.

How did blood get on the knife?

You're trying too hard to make the confessions work.
 
I have spent countless hours poring over several hundred crime scene photos and many hours of crime scene video, and I have discussed this material with a number of experts. I understand what really happened.

you don't think that it is starting to get a little weird for you? considering that what you think about this isn't going to change the outcome as you are not involved with the trial or on the jury......
 
I've never understood why this is such a big deal to the PGP. I deal with people in Europe and every once in a while they send a fax in the middle of the night knowing that my fax is near my bedroom and the calls wake me up. They don't think about it at noon that it is 3 am here.

At that time she had discovered strange things and had or was about to call Filomena. The PGP have speculated that she having killed her roommate 14 hours before decided to confess to mom and find out how she should get out of murder. Ridiculous.

Why didn't she call mom at 3 am Perugia time? Or 6 am Perugia time. If the call had any nefarious intent why not call at those times?

Another red herring.

She had been in Europe a while and made lots of calls would have been well aware of the 9 hour time difference!! She called her mother at 12pm / 3am middle of the night Seattle time. Understandable only if something had happened like a murder or even a staged break-in. Nothing had happened yet , so little real concern on her part that she went ahead and had breakfast.Police were called much later. Court testimony has her denying that call at 3am then admitting to only the possibility that she didn't remember. She wasn't in shock when she made the call, her mother would have been alarmed and wondered why she'd been woken up. There is no reason not to remember or deny it other than the obvious.
 
Greetings Dr. Tesla,
Rudy Guede was,
in my humble opinion,
a habitual crap-taking non-toilet flushing kinda dude.

Don't believe me?

Here's a simple quote from John Follian, an apparently, IMHO, pro-guilt author,
speaking about Guede-o hanging out with the boyz downstairs, before Meredith was raped and murdered:
"Stefano Bonassi, one of the students in the flat, had said the 'South African' was so drunk on a visit there that he had fallen asleep on the toilet without flushing it - a detail that reminded Napoleoni that someone failed to flush the toilet in Merdith's flat around the same time she was killed."
Link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3p...onepage&q=Stefano Bonassi rudy toilet&f=false


Dr.Tesla,
Many of us pro-innocence posters here on the JREF
were guilters a long, long time ago...

With that said, please add this to the list that we have recently given you to help you understand this brutal murder and rape we discuss.:

Rudy Guede did not even flush the toilet on a previous social visit downstairs when he hung out with the boyz.

Why would he do so upstairs?

Reading Follian's passage
I wonder,
was Rudy Guede drunk or high on snif, snif, snif the night he raped and murdered Meredith Kercher?

Hmmmm,
RW

you'd think Rudy would break his protocol and flush the toilet, after he murdered somebody, especially if he returned to the crime scene to do a clean up of some sort.

I think all three of them were on herorin or cocaine, mixed with alcohol and weed.
 
there's a saying that if you are having to explain everything, you are losing. I can't help but feel that is the case for our heroine Knox. really the only thing people accept without a lot of explanation from Knox is that she had sex and smoked pot that night. that's because she does that every night.

Pretty much every aspect of her story is challenged by the prosecution, there is something contradictory about it when compared to something else, or it's just flat out weird, litke the bathmat shuffle, or bragging about finding a body near a closet when she didn't see the body and it's location was't near the closet (I understand it was a small room but why not say the body was near the window, or the door, technically you can say it's near everything, so why talk about the closet, it's an odd detail to include)

I hope Knox's lawyers are getting paid well b/c she seems like the worse client to have.
 
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I'm with you Dan. I started to investigate this case assuming that the evidence of the couple's guilt would be self evident after a little reading. I spent a lot of time reading details of the murder at TJMK and PMF.

I wouldn't call me a hard core guilter or PGP, but it certainly seemed like they were guilty to me at that time. There was Raffaele calling the Carabineiri after the Postal police arrived, there was the couple supposedly cleaning up the murder, the staging, the buying of bleach at the store. There were the witnesses, there was the Luminol footprints and Raffaele's footprint on the bathmat and then there was the knife and bra clasp.

I do admit however to rejecting the interrogation statements almost immediately. First the statements were incredibly unclear and didn't fit the facts of the crime. I mean you can't just swap Rudy for Patrick because it pleases you. It was also very clear to me that Amanda never wrote that statement. As a graduate from a prestigious prep school in Seattle as well as a student studying creative writing at the UW, it was far too stilted to have been written by her. I decided that from then on I'd ignore the statements and focus on the circumstantial and physical evidence.

Then it turned out that Raffaele actually call the Carabineiri BEFORE the Postal Police arrived. Then after looking at a lot of the photos and reading more, it became clear that there was no cleanup. Then the story of the bleach turned out to be bogus. Well...ok.. I just chalked that up to the media being full of it..and repeating rumors...it doesn't mean that A and R weren't guilty.

After all, how do you explain Raffaele's bloody footprint on the bathmat? Wasn't that incriminating? I mean an expert attributed it to Raffaele...right?? Well that is true..a so called expert did. But another expert said no..it was Rudy's!!! I'd just have to look at it myself and make my own decision. I probably stared at that picture with my screen blown up to the best possible resolution for hours and what I determined is that they were both full of crap. It might be Raffaele's, it also might be Rudy's, it also might be thousands, even millions of people's footprint. While I think you could use this footprint to eliminate a suspect, it is worthless for positive attribution....Scratch the bathmat footprint.

What about the Luminol footprints in the hallway and in Amanda's room? Aren't those proof of Amanda walking around in Meredith's blood? Surely that is damning!!!! Well you would think that, but if you look at these footprints...NONE are in Meredith's room!!! So what does that tell you? Anything? Did Amanda watch or as Mignini hypothesizes, direct the murder from the hallway?? (I didn't and don't buy this) I have hypothesized that Amanda took a shower the next morning and there was dried blood on the shower floor that transferred to the bottom of Amanda's feet and this is a record of Amanda the next morning, not the previous evening.

Then I read about Luminol and I found out that it actually isn't conclusive proof of blood at all, but a presumptive test for blood. Luminol actually reacts to all kinds of substances including fruit juices, bleach, anything with Iron in it..in fact iron is the reason it reacts to blood since Luminol is reacting to the iron in the red blood cells. I then find out that the tech Stefanoni also performed another test (TMB) on the Luminol footprints to see if they were blood and that came back NEGATIVE.
Scratch the Luminol bare footprints as evidence of anything.

What about the knife? Surely the DNA on that is incriminating as hell...right?? Well, as it turns out. NO. The knife doesn't appear to have made any of the wounds and doesn't match the knife stain on the sheet. Then you add in how this knife was supposedly carried back and forth to the crime scene..which, let's be honest, is absurd. Then you read about how Stefanoni seemed to have broken every laboratory rule and protocol and then how the court appointed DNA experts tore this apart and I have to scratch the knife.

The bra clasp. I saw the video of the Lab technicians collecting this piece of evidence and passing it back and forth and making a big show about it and then putting it back on the floor. That made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. Scratch the bra clasp. In fact it was that moment that made me think of police corruption. All I could think was...why did they make a show of picking up this single piece of evidence?

The witnesses: What can you say about the witnesses? First, eyewitnesses are the worst kind of evidence. At night, in the dark, even if they saw something, is it really reasonable that they can identify any one reliably? I've seen lots of social experiment about the eyewitnesses and they are notoriously bad. Now, who saw or heard what? Curatolo? A drug addled homeless guy who can't tell Halloween from November 1st and is contradicted by the Kiosk owners. Quintavalle, the store owner who came forward a year later at the urgings of a reporter a year later who said he saw Amanda waiting the next morning to get in the store and then came in and went to the cleaning area and then left without buying anything? Never mind that contradicts what he told detectives days after the murder and never mind his own employees contradict him. Nara, who says she heard a scream and people running away in the middle of the night who says it was about 11:30 (but never looked at a clock) never mind she was three floors up and hearing through double pane windows. The guys who's car broke down across the street from the cottage who hear nothing unusual? Where do the witnesses leave you? NOWHERE!!! Scratch the witnesses.


You see Sherlock, I don't know Amanda, I don't know Raffaele. I'm not a member of FOA. But if I knew what I know now 4 years ago, I'm sure I would be one. When I first started to investigate this case I fully expected to be persuaded in Amanda's and Raffaele's guilt. It was the overwhelming lack of evidence that has persuaded me of their innocence. I've read about just every single piece of evidence that people such as yourself think to be incriminating and I've come to the conclusion that the evidence has just as likely a innocent interpretation as a guilty one and therefore it would be UNFAIR to seize upon the guilty explanation.

That's a good summary.

I thought Amanda might be guilty for the first few weeks after her arrest. The other day Tesla drew a comparison with the Janet Chandler case (although he couldn't remember the name). It's actually not at all similar, but in November 2007, it sounded like it might be.

I didn't really follow the details of the investigation at first. One day I read something that made me realize the sequence of events... that Amanda incriminated herself, and accused Lumumba who turned out to have an alibi, without ever mentioning Guede, who was certainly involved.

Once I put all that together, it was obvious she had to be innocent. Otherwise she'd have rolled on Guede. That was when I started to pay close attention, and I realized the whole case was smoke and mirrors, just as you describe.

I didn't realize the saga would take over my life, but it did, and I'm glad it did, because it gave me something worthwhile to do.

I met her before she was released, BTW. I visited her in prison in June 2010.
 
That's a good summary.

I thought Amanda might be guilty for the first few weeks after her arrest. The other day Tesla drew a comparison with the Janet Chandler case (although he couldn't remember the name). It's actually not at all similar, but in November 2007, it sounded like it might be.

I didn't really follow the details of the investigation at first. One day I read something that made me realize the sequence of events... that Amanda incriminated herself, and accused Lumumba who turned out to have an alibi, without ever mentioning Guede, who was certainly involved.

Once I put all that together, it was obvious she had to be innocent. Otherwise she'd have rolled on Guede. That was when I started to pay close attention, and I realized the whole case was smoke and mirrors, just as you describe.

I didn't realize the saga would take over my life, but it did, and I'm glad it did, because it gave me something worthwhile to do.

I met her before she was released, BTW. I visited her in prison in June 2010.

I think it is somewhat similar. I do think Knox's jealousy of her more attractive and intelligent roommate Meridith was at the heart of it. Men just liked Meredith more b/c she was soft and feminine while Knox was kind of tom boyish and cold and aggressive and annoying. You know Meredith thought she was hot stuff b/c she was in a music video, and throw in the fact that she slut shamed Knox over brining strange men over the cottage every night, Knox wanted to teach this little conceited English girl a lesson.

Jealousy of Janet Chandler being a bigger hit with the men staying at the hotel is why her roommate told the guy that Janet was sleeping around with all the guards, she wanted to anger him so he would do something to her. then she and the other two jealous girls cheered on the gang rape that lead to her death.
Knox was cheering on, and in this case, actually participated much more actively in the rape than Janet Chandler's roommate did, b/c she held a knife, and then she stabbed the victim. You are right about it being different, with Knox's role being much much worse.
 
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I think that witness, the foreign guy who was a crack head, and they had a hard time understanding b/c he didn't speak Italian and he probably was embellishing some aspects of his story, was a credible witness and that he saw the three the night after the murder. He talked about stuff like the tow truck coming for the broke down car only somebody who had been there would have known about. he said he saw the three, and Knox had a knife and that Knox was just acting nuts, which would indicate she was on really laced out on some hardcore drugs. I can't see why this guy, who was some kind of drug dealer, would approach the police on his own accord if there wasn't something to his story. Drug dealers usually don't want to be involved in a murder case or deal with police anymore than they had to. I wouldn't doubt if more people saw Knox and these other two that night but the area of Perugia they were living in seems to have a lot of drug abusers and they just aren't going to voluntarily talk to the police about something.
 
Give me a break, you honestly believe that?

Absolutely. Compare yourself. If it was Raf's, which I assume you are driving at, please explain why they wouldn't have washed it, thrown it away or left soaked in the shower. You believe in some sort or cleaning and staging yet you believe that Raf wouldn't notice the footprint on the mat. Did he clean his footsteps leading to it? How did he leave it?

Really, you're the one that needs to be giving breaks.

If she were murdered at 9:15, do you believe that Amanda then ran to the plaza before 9:30 to be spotted by Curatolo?

Do you think Nara was a drug addict?
 
Unidentified DNA...

The DNA on the bra clasp has multiple contributors in the autosomal profile, and multiple male contributors in the YSTR profile. Unless one believes that many male individuals took part in this attack, one has to accept that there was innocent DNA transfer to this item at some point. Items of clothing are expected to have multiple contributors. This link has more information. A footnote to Table 1 states, "Although the spouse and children cannot be excluded as potential contributors to these mixtures, they cannot account for all the non-wearer's DNA present."

<snip>
A quote from Charlie Wilkes:
Male #4, rep. 32, (non-blood) boxer shorts from Sollecito's apt.
Male #5, rep. 47, (non-blood) stained white rag from Sollecito's apt.

Male #6, rep. 101, (non-blood), stain revealed with luminol on kitchen mat from Sollecito's apt.

Male #7, rep. 142, saliva, cigarette butt from kitchen ashtray at cottage; rep. 143, saliva, cigarette butt from kitchen ashtray at cottage; rep. 144, saliva, cigarette butt from kitchen ashtray at cottage

Male #8, rep. 227, (non-blood) tee shirt taken from Sollecito



Heya Charlie Wilkes,
I just have to assume that the Unidentified DNA on Raf's boxer shorts is from Perugia law enforcement, right?

I mean,
Raf's in prison,
who's touchin' Raf's underwear???
His t-shirts, his bathmat?
Guedo-o?
Right...


Is there any way to compare the Unidentified DNA found on Raf's underwear, apartment, bathmat, t-shirt+car with the multple Unidentified DNA found on the bra clasp that Meredith had sooo forcibly removed from her breasts as she lay dying after getting brutally stabbed by Rudy Guede?



Wouldn't it be tragic if the Unidentified DNA found Miss Kercher's bra clasp matched that Unidentified DNA found on Raf's underwear?
And it came from a cop???


Didn't the cops 'find' the bra clasp the day after Raffaele's Family went on Italian national TV
and showed that his Raf's Nike AirForce I sneakers had just 7 rings,
whereas Rudy Guede's Nike Outbreak II sneakers had 11 rings,
totally embarrasing Perugia law enforcement?

link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=YW...=VaqWUbKoB8aTiQLztYC4Dw&sqi=2&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBg
Link:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/footprints-04.html

Hmmmm...
RW
 
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Absolutely. Compare yourself. If it was Raf's, which I assume you are driving at, please explain why they wouldn't have washed it, thrown it away or left soaked in the shower. You believe in some sort or cleaning and staging yet you believe that Raf wouldn't notice the footprint on the mat. Did he clean his footsteps leading to it? How did he leave it?

Really, you're the one that needs to be giving breaks.

If she were murdered at 9:15, do you believe that Amanda then ran to the plaza before 9:30 to be spotted by Curatolo?

Do you think Nara was a drug addict?

I saw a picture of the footprint on the mat, and it looked really faded to me, like the mat had been washed.
 
She had been in Europe a while and made lots of calls would have been well aware of the 9 hour time difference!! She called her mother at 12pm / 3am middle of the night Seattle time. Understandable only if something had happened like a murder or even a staged break-in. Nothing had happened yet , so little real concern on her part that she went ahead and had breakfast.Police were called much later. Court testimony has her denying that call at 3am then admitting to only the possibility that she didn't remember. She wasn't in shock when she made the call, her mother would have been alarmed and wondered why she'd been woken up. There is no reason not to remember or deny it other than the obvious.

The people I described have been in Europe all their lives, are aware of the time difference but sometimes call in the middle of the night. The calls I receive have absolutely no urgency, but they still occurred.

Even after her mother acknowledged the call, Amanda said she didn't. What would the point in that?

When people have a big shock or have a traumatic event, they don't remember everything up to the event and then forget. They forget things that lead up to it.

Why wouldn't she say that she made the call because she was concerned and wanted her mother's advice and hadn't really thought about the time.

The bigger question you avoid is what she talked about. You need to believe she told her mother that she had participated in a murder and needed advice on how to get out of it.

She was calling other people at the same time.

This is just another red herring. If you believe she called to ask what to do after murdering someone, why didn't she call after the murder at 1 am or 2 am or 7 am - why noon?
 
The people I described have been in Europe all their lives, are aware of the time difference but sometimes call in the middle of the night. The calls I receive have absolutely no urgency, but they still occurred.

Even after her mother acknowledged the call, Amanda said she didn't. What would the point in that?

When people have a big shock or have a traumatic event, they don't remember everything up to the event and then forget. They forget things that lead up to it.

Why wouldn't she say that she made the call because she was concerned and wanted her mother's advice and hadn't really thought about the time.

The bigger question you avoid is what she talked about. You need to believe she told her mother that she had participated in a murder and needed advice on how to get out of it.

She was calling other people at the same time.

This is just another red herring. If you believe she called to ask what to do after murdering someone, why didn't she call after the murder at 1 am or 2 am or 7 am - why noon?

Say she did confide in mum. Would that have affected the context of calls between the two in the ensuing days? Might they have talked a little more about it? If so, the cops would have that recorded. And mum might actually have given some worthwhile advice: get the heck outta there, or get a lawyer. None of this happened. Therefore the whole idea sucks. Let's move on.
 
Say she did confide in mum. Would that have affected the context of calls between the two in the ensuing days? Might they have talked a little more about it? If so, the cops would have that recorded. And mum might actually have given some worthwhile advice: get the heck outta there, or get a lawyer. None of this happened. Therefore the whole idea sucks. Let's move on.

nothing to see here, let's move on.
 
That's a good summary.

I thought Amanda might be guilty for the first few weeks after her arrest. The other day Tesla drew a comparison with the Janet Chandler case (although he couldn't remember the name). It's actually not at all similar, but in November 2007, it sounded like it might be.

I didn't really follow the details of the investigation at first. One day I read something that made me realize the sequence of events... that Amanda incriminated herself, and accused Lumumba who turned out to have an alibi, without ever mentioning Guede, who was certainly involved.

Once I put all that together, it was obvious she had to be innocent. Otherwise she'd have rolled on Guede. That was when I started to pay close attention, and I realized the whole case was smoke and mirrors, just as you describe.

I didn't realize the saga would take over my life, but it did, and I'm glad it did, because it gave me something worthwhile to do.

I met her before she was released, BTW. I visited her in prison in June 2010.

Are you free to discuss your visit with AK? If so, how did this come about? Why were you visiting her?
 
Say she did confide in mum. Would that have affected the context of calls between the two in the ensuing days? Might they have talked a little more about it? If so, the cops would have that recorded. And mum might actually have given some worthwhile advice: get the heck outta there, or get a lawyer. None of this happened. Therefore the whole idea sucks. Let's move on.

Yes sir! (clicking of heels :p)
 
Are you free to discuss your visit with AK? If so, how did this come about? Why were you visiting her?


Hiya Yimyammer,
Charlie got involved in this case really early,
he has lots of info, photo's+such, that he sometimes shares here on The JREF...

I believe that Amanda and Raf had nothing to do wih Meredith Kercher's horrible murder.
And it's nice to know that he visited her while in prison for a crime she did not commit.
Search all 5 of the threads here on JREF,
Charlie, aka Jim, knows his "stuff"...
RW
 
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Hiya Yimyammer,
Charlie got involved in this case really early,
he has lots of info, photo's+such, that he sometimes shares here on The JREF...

I believe that Amanda and Raf had nothing to do wih Meredith Kercher's horrible murder.
And it's nice to know that he visited her while in prison for a crime she did not commit.
Search all 5 of the threads here on JREF,
Charlie, aka Jim, knows his "stuff"...
RW

I don't believe somebody who actually visited this batty bimbo in jail is going to be objective about the evidence against her.
Removed personal comment
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis
 
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