Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Kevin_Lowe]

Irrelevant evidence = any evidence that points to Knox's and Raff's guilt.

Ever noticed that? bra clasp DNA = irrelevant. double DNA knife found at Raffe's house = irrelevant Amanda's lamp in the victim's room on the floor = irrelevant Raffe's bloody footprint on the floor = irrelevant

and on it goes.

Funny how that works.

In the Lesley Molseed case, the police built up a dossier of several thousand pages of "evidence", all of which they claimed incriminated Stefan Kiszko. Every single bit of it fell apart under scrutiny though, because they had the wrong person and were desperately trying to build a case out of nothing.

In the Meredith Kercher case, the police also built up a dossier of several thousand pages of "evidence" which they claimed incriminated Knox and Raffaele. It all unravels under impartial scrutiny, however, because as it turns out they had the wrong people and were trying to build a case out of nothing.

It's not a coincidence, it's exactly what you'd expect based on similar misguided prosecutions. It's just very hard to find good evidence against people who are, in fact, innocent.

Also, can you please stop misrepresenting the facts? There is no "Raff's bloody footprint on the floor". No such thing exists.

 

[Grinder]

Cool. Based on Massei's logic, none of the DNA evidence should be allowed because DNA can't be dated.

Yes I thought of that after I posted. Clearly evidence in Meredith's blood is dated but footprints that tested negative for blood would not be. The DNA on the bra clasp could have come at some time before the murder night. Raffaele could have fooled around with it while it was on the drying rack - rookie that he was maybe he practiced with it.

Of course, had the stain turned out to be a non-match for anyone known to have had sex with Meredith or anyone associated with the crime according to Mignini, what would that mean? It would mean someone else was there that night.

 

[Matthew Best]

to say the DNA experts were independent in the 2nd trial is just not true. they obviously were pushing the same type of argument as the defense witnesses in the 1st trial. my opinion is Hellman had reviewed the first trial and had agreed with the defense in that trial. He went out of his way to appoint DNA experts that would push the same message as the ones in the first trial, and he called them independent and only allowed them to testify. I bet this is at the heart of the Supreme Court tossing the verdict b/c it just seems real shady.

There's a whole sub-forum dedicated to Conspiracy Theories.

It is thataway =====>

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Rep 199; memory; misinformation on 2 November

There was blood and hair found on the window that was tested too late and yielded no conclusive results. Someone came through it.

SNIP

Practically every other person in this crazy story made the same mistakes in memory that Knox did. Yet they get a free pass.

Rep. 199 and Rep. 198, are the possible blood and hair samples, respectively. It is difficult to find the earlier discussions of them in these threads because of the nature of the search function here, but here is one. During the trial the cops sometimes said words to the effect, "How can you expect me to remember the time exactly?" according to Murder In Italy. Pages 77-83 can be consulted for some of the ways the students learned about the murder during November 2nd. One other thing that emerged from my rereading of this passage was that more than one person made a comment or joke that could be deemed inappropriate. They all get a free pass from me on that score. They were young and a shocking thing had just happened.

 

[Grinder]

Great post. The discussion goes round and round rather than forward. The lamp should not be discussed until someone properly explains why Mignini did not elicit the evidence that would have been available of its presence had it really been there. He had at least four witnesses who could give that evidence. This is an extremely simple inferential point by no means beyond the grasp of the posters on this thread.

Similarly as regards the body in the closet. If she had said she found the body under a duvet lying on a pillow that would have been incriminating. That she said it was in the closet when it never was (she certainly was not killed in the closet) proves what? Innocence, if anything, but more likely shock and incomprehension.

The lamp can not be considered unless there was bloody prints or someone's prints other than Amanda, Raf or Meredith. It was the nearest light source. It would be the logical choice for the PP, the CSI or anyone wanting more light, period.

Amanda is narcissistic and sees herself as the center or wants to see herself as the center of things. She talked about writing a song about the murder. She was the first on the scene and sounded the alert. She now says she was immature to think and say "It could have been me". So what?

 

[anglolawyer]

The lamp can not be considered unless there was bloody prints or someone's prints other than Amanda, Raf or Meredith. It was the nearest light source. It would be the logical choice for the PP, the CSI or anyone wanting more light, period.

Amanda is narcissistic and sees herself as the center or wants to see herself as the center of things. She talked about writing a song about the murder. She was the first on the scene and sounded the alert. She now says she was immature to think and say "It could have been me". So what?

How does it fit with a guilty Amanda anyway? 'I found the body, it was in the closet'. No it wasn't. It wasn't near the closet either, no more than it was near anything else being as it was in the middle of the floor. The whole PGP meme is they wanted someone else to discover the body but to be there when they did so as to 'control' the scene. Clever Amanda. But then she forgot and blurted out she found it and it was in the closet. Dumb Amanda.

The lamp's gone and this silly nonsense is gone also. Next talking point please.

 

[anglolawyer]

Oh, while we're talking about the untested 'semen stain', what about the untested formation hairs under her fingernails? From Amanda's appeal

Formation hairs were found under Meredith's fingernails. Mitochondrial DNA exam should be done to determine who this belongs to. This test was not done. This shows that Meredith broke free and grabbed her attacker's hair to try and stop the attack.

I understand formation hairs to be root hairs.

 

[DrTesla]

How does it fit with a guilty Amanda anyway? 'I found the body, it was in the closet'. No it wasn't. It wasn't near the closet either, no more than it was near anything else being as it was in the middle of the floor. The whole PGP meme is they wanted someone else to discover the body but to be there when they did so as to 'control' the scene. Clever Amanda. But then she forgot and blurted out she found it and it was in the closet. Dumb Amanda.

The lamp's gone and this silly nonsense is gone also. Next talking point please.

why would you say you found a body if you didn't find the body and in fact, you had backed away from the door and everybody that was here knew that? It seems to me she is aware that might look incriminating and she's trying to spread the idea that she was right in there interested in what was in Meridith's room, after the fact. it's the creative writing major, trying to get control of the narrative again.

people don't typically make up stuff, especially stuff like they found a body, when they didn't find a body. She's lying and there isn't any rational reason for her to be lying about finding body if she didn't find it.

She didn't just tell her friends she HEARD the body was near or in the closet, she said she FOUND the body in or near the closet, even though it was found in the middle of the room. I don't see how you can just dismiss this as no big deal unless you are hellbent on her being found innocent.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

daylight savings time

She called her mother at 3am Seattle time when nothing had been discovered yet then tried to deny or not remember that call.

Briars, IIRC Seattle and Perugia changed from daylight savings time to standard time one week apart in 2007. Are you certain you are correctly accounting for the difference in times between the two cities?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

putative semen stain

Oh, while we're talking about the untested 'semen stain', what about the untested formation hairs under her fingernails? From Amanda's appeal
Quote:
Formation hairs were found under Meredith's fingernails. Mitochondrial DNA exam should be done to determine who this belongs to. This test was not done. This shows that Meredith broke free and grabbed her attacker's hair to try and stop the attack.

I understand formation hairs to be root hairs.

Good point. Suppose that this belonged to Rudy, or suppose that the putative semen stain were tested and also belonged to Rudy. This would further undermine his credibility with respect to his claim that he had consensual intimacy with Meredith that stopped short of intercourse. The fact that neither test was done points out in additional ways how incomplete the forensics were in this case.

 

[DrTesla]

Good point. Suppose that this belonged to Rudy, or suppose that the putative semen stain were tested and also belonged to Rudy. This would further undermine his credibility with respect to his claim that he had consensual intimacy with Meredith that stopped short of intercourse. The fact that neither test was done points out in additional ways how incomplete the forensics were in this case.

or the defense waited to last second to ask for the court to allow testing for this "semen" stain. If it was that important, why did they wait until last second. Massei's report seems to indicate they waited until last second and he or some other judge decided it was not an absolute necessity to include it to prove innocence or guilt in the case. I've seen no evidence that Mignini opposed testing the stain, and I would doubt it was his decision but rather Massei or another judge's decision.

There is no way the prosecution feared this stain being tested, b/c if it's semen belonging to Rudy, it doesn't prove Raffe and Knox's innocence. All is does is confirm Rudy's guilt who nobody doubts is guilty. Raff would actually be at much greater risk in testing this stain than the prosecution's case.

 

[Grinder]

She called her mother at 3am Seattle time when nothing had been discovered yet then tried to deny or not remember that call.

I've never understood why this is such a big deal to the PGP. I deal with people in Europe and every once in a while they send a fax in the middle of the night knowing that my fax is near my bedroom and the calls wake me up. They don't think about it at noon that it is 3 am here.

At that time she had discovered strange things and had or was about to call Filomena. The PGP have speculated that she having killed her roommate 14 hours before decided to confess to mom and find out how she should get out of murder. Ridiculous.

Why didn't she call mom at 3 am Perugia time? Or 6 am Perugia time. If the call had any nefarious intent why not call at those times?

Another red herring.

 

[DrTesla]

I've never understood why this is such a big deal to the PGP. I deal with people in Europe and every once in a while they send a fax in the middle of the night knowing that my fax is near my bedroom and the calls wake me up. They don't think about it at noon that it is 3 am here.

At that time she had discovered strange things and had or was about to call Filomena. The PGP have speculated that she having killed her roommate 14 hours before decided to confess to mom and find out how she should get out of murder. Ridiculous.

Why didn't she call mom at 3 am Perugia time? Or 6 am Perugia time. If the call had any nefarious intent why not call at those times?

Another red herring.

you don't see a first time event, calling her mother in the middle of the night, something she had not done before since being in Italy, on the night of a murder of her roommate, to be one big coincidence if she's truly innocent? She stated in court she didn't remember the call despite the fact she must have had a special motivation for waking her mommy up. There's no way a good jury is going to say this isn't indicative of her guilt b/c her mom expressed surprise later in a conversation at the prison with Knox that the police overheard that Knox had called her before the body was actually discovered, so obviously Knox was in a state of panic about the body with her mom. That really could be most damning evidence against Knox. to say it's a red herring is real dumb

 

[Chris_Halkides]

police light

Dr. Vinci, a defense consultant, found the stain with a police light, such as a Polilight. If the FP did not also use one, then they are incompetent. If they did, then they should have tested the stain. There were two excuses offered for why the stain was not tested further IIUC. One was that they wanted to preserve the tread marks, and the other was that semen cannot be dated. Neither argument makes much sense IMO. What the defense did or did not say about testing this stain is not the point. However, testing the stain very late into the investigation naturally raises concerns about the possibility of bias. That is why the testing should be done early in the investigation.

 

[anglolawyer]

Good point. Suppose that this belonged to Rudy, or suppose that the putative semen stain were tested and also belonged to Rudy. This would further undermine his credibility with respect to his claim that he had consensual intimacy with Meredith that stopped short of intercourse. The fact that neither test was done points out in additional ways how incomplete the forensics were in this case.

Halides - are you sure you're not English? 'Incomplete' is one heck of an understatement!

 

[Chris_Halkides]

that's all, folks

At that time she had discovered strange things and had or was about to call Filomena. The PGP have speculated that she having killed her roommate 14 hours before decided to confess to mom and find out how she should get out of murder. Ridiculous.

Why didn't she call mom at 3 am Perugia time? Or 6 am Perugia time. If the call had any nefarious intent why not call at those times?

+1

 

[DrTesla]

Dr. Vinci, a defense consultant, found the stain with a police light, such as a Polilight. If the FP did not also use one, then they are incompetent. If they did, then they should have tested the stain. There were two excuses offered for why the stain was not tested further IIUC. One was that they wanted to preserve the tread marks, and the other was that semen cannot be dated. Neither argument makes much sense IMO. What the defense did or did not say about testing this stain is not the point. However, testing the stain very late into the investigation naturally raises concerns about the possibility of bias. That is why the testing should be done early in the investigation.

the reality is Friends are getting hammered with all the evidence against Knox, so they got to invent a straw man like this stain to go on offense with, b/c you guys are on defense 99.99999% of the time.

 

[DrTesla]

it's hard to understand what Friends would consider damning evidence against Knox, outside of videotape of them committing the murder. even DNA on the victim's bra clasp doesn't cut it with these guys.

 

[Grinder]

How does it fit with a guilty Amanda anyway? 'I found the body, it was in the closet'. No it wasn't. It wasn't near the closet either, no more than it was near anything else being as it was in the middle of the floor. The whole PGP meme is they wanted someone else to discover the body but to be there when they did so as to 'control' the scene. Clever Amanda. But then she forgot and blurted out she found it and it was in the closet. Dumb Amanda.

The lamp's gone and this silly nonsense is gone also. Next talking point please.

Yes, sir. (Heel click)

 

[Chris_Halkides]

DNA on clothing

The DNA on the bra clasp has multiple contributors in the autosomal profile, and multiple male contributors in the YSTR profile. Unless one believes that many male individuals took part in this attack, one has to accept that there was innocent DNA transfer to this item at some point. Items of clothing are expected to have multiple contributors. This link has more information. A footnote to Table 1 states, "Although the spouse and children cannot be excluded as potential contributors to these mixtures, they cannot account for all the non-wearer's DNA present."