Continuation Part 5: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[acbytesla]

Rep. 199 and Rep. 198, are the possible blood and hair samples, respectively. It is difficult to find the earlier discussions of them in these threads because of the nature of the search function here, but here is one. During the trial the cops sometimes said words to the effect, "How can you expect me to remember the time exactly?" according to Murder In Italy. Pages 77-83 can be consulted for some of the ways the students learned about the murder during November 2nd. One other thing that emerged from my rereading of this passage was that more than one person made a comment or joke that could be deemed inappropriate. They all get a free pass from me on that score. They were young and a shocking thing had just happened.

I'm with you on this Chris. "Black, inappropriate humor" is not evidence of anything and is in fact quite common. I have lots of friends that are police officers, and they have all been to homes with dead bodies and most have been to murder scenes in fact one is a detective who has now investigated lots of murders. You can't believe the jokes that I have heard them repeat about what they saw. I've seen pictures of cops laughing and joking over dead bodies!!! People joke about these things, inappropriate or not, they do.

I still to this day remember almost telling a joke about the Space Shuttle Challenger blowing up to my father's new wife a couple of decades ago. (Could have been a monster mistake as it was unknown to me that her brother was the Challenger Commander Richard Scobee....ooopss!!!!)

 

[yimyammer]

it's hard to understand what Friends would consider damning evidence against Knox, outside of videotape of them committing the murder. even DNA on the victim's bra clasp doesn't cut it with these guys.

A few of things that would go a long way for me would be if Raf's semen had been found in the murder room (MR). If fingerprints of Raf & AK had been found in the MR. I would have liked to have seen multiple footprints from different feet or shoes in all the blood that was in the MR. DNA of AK or Raf under the fingernails of Meredith.

I would have especially liked to have heard Rudy give a full account of what happened that night and how the three of them found themselves together at the crime scene committing this murder. In cases I've followed with multiple perps, the one who strikes a deal first usually gives an account of what occurred that makes sense and explains the evidence in exchange for cracking first and making said deal. The fact that the prosecution or whomever whisked Rudy out of the court after only ten minutes and saying next to nothing and having Mignini read a statement Rudy wrote prior is baffling to me and strikes me as really strange.

I am also highly dubious that three people of their age and life experience would not have broken down by now and given a full account of what happened that makes sense and matches the crime scene & evidence (I don't consider Amanda fingering Patrick an accurate account of what happened).

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Guede did it alone, almost certainly before 9.30 p.m., and that theory fits all the reliable evidence.

I fail to see what evidence fits that theory, other than perhaps he said that. There are Meredith phone records at 10:10 from the cottage, if she's dead, she didn't make them, if Rudy did, then what was he doing for over 40 minutes after the murder, you would think he might want to get out of there before someone came home. I keep asking but no one can answer, how long did this attack take, was it all over in 5 minutes, 10 maybe, perhaps even an hour, it is unknown.
I would think the attack happened shortly after Meredith got home, I think Rudy left after the last phone activity (10:10) and before the break down car arrived (10:30), I do not think Rudi hand around the house any extra time, she probably died around 10:00.

 

[yimyammer]

The DNA on the bra clasp has multiple contributors in the autosomal profile, and multiple male contributors in the YSTR profile. Unless one believes that many male individuals took part in this attack, one has to accept that there was innocent DNA transfer to this item at some point. Items of clothing are expected to have multiple contributors. This link has more information. A footnote to Table 1 states, "Although the spouse and children cannot be excluded as potential contributors to these mixtures, they cannot account for all the non-wearer's DNA present."

I admit I have a weak understanding of DNA, how it transfers, etc, etc but within my limited understanding, it doesn't seem odd that multiple male DNA might be found on a bra strap of a pretty girl of whom I would expect many males endeavored to remove over time.

Having said that, if DNA is easily removed when washing the bra, then I guess my point is moot

 

[Grinder]

I admit I have a weak understanding of DNA, how it transfers, etc, etc but within my limited understanding, it doesn't seem odd that multiple male DNA might be found on a bra strap of a pretty girl of whom I would expect many males endeavored to remove over time.

Having said that, if DNA is easily removed when washing the bra, then I guess my point is moot

To me this and other comments make clear why every case involving complex DNA evidence needs a independent expert opinion or assistance in evaluating that evidence. Even criminal judges with years of experience would not be up to date on this complex science.

 

[Malkmus]

you don't see a first time event, calling her mother in the middle of the night, something she had not done before since being in Italy, on the night of a murder of her roommate, to be one big coincidence if she's truly innocent? She stated in court she didn't remember the call despite the fact she must have had a special motivation for waking her mommy up. There's no way a good jury is going to say this isn't indicative of her guilt b/c her mom expressed surprise later in a conversation at the prison with Knox that the police overheard that Knox had called her before the body was actually discovered, so obviously Knox was in a state of panic about the body with her mom. That really could be most damning evidence against Knox. to say it's a red herring is real dumb

She had already called Filomena before she called her mom. She had already called Meredith's phone before her mom. They called the police less than five minutes after she and Raf spoke to their family members. This call to police was also before the body was found.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I fail to see what evidence fits that theory, other than perhaps he said that. There are Meredith phone records at 10:10 from the cottage, if she's dead, she didn't make them, if Rudy did, then what was he doing for over 40 minutes after the murder, you would think he might want to get out of there before someone came home. I keep asking but no one can answer, how long did this attack take, was it all over in 5 minutes, 10 maybe, perhaps even an hour, it is unknown.
I would think the attack happened shortly after Meredith got home, I think Rudy left after the last phone activity (10:10) and before the break down car arrived (10:30), I do not think Rudi hand around the house any extra time, she probably died around 10:00.

Haven't we been over this before? Every phone call known to have been made at the cottage went through the Piazza Lupatelli tower a few hundred yards away. Every single one.

But the data burst at 10:13 went through a different tower - the Strada Vicinale tower, which serves the area around Guede's apt.

Police engineers brought special equipment to the crime scene and they were able to detect a signal from the Strada Vicinale tower. But apparently they couldn't detect a signal from that tower in the garden where the phone was ultimately found.

That is Massei's "proof" the phone was still at the cottage at 10:13.

I would suggest it is far more likely the phone was somewhere else at that time, and Guede disposed of it shortly thereafter.

 

[acbytesla]

I fail to see what evidence fits that theory, other than perhaps he said that. There are Meredith phone records at 10:10 from the cottage, if she's dead, she didn't make them, if Rudy did, then what was he doing for over 40 minutes after the murder, you would think he might want to get out of there before someone came home. I keep asking but no one can answer, how long did this attack take, was it all over in 5 minutes, 10 maybe, perhaps even an hour, it is unknown.
I would think the attack happened shortly after Meredith got home, I think Rudy left after the last phone activity (10:10) and before the break down car arrived (10:30), I do not think Rudi hand around the house any extra time, she probably died around 10:00.

I have no idea why you would think that the 10:13 (not 10:10) call was made at the cottage. In fact it far more likely that this call was made away from the cottage than at the cottage. This is in my wheelhouse having worked in the datacom field for more than two decades. I have written dozens (probably hundreds) of posts on the cell phone communications in this case. There are three very suspicious calls made with Meredith's phones. The first two were at 9:58 and 10:00 PM. There are only records of these calls on the phone itself. They were uncompleted, one of which was to Meredith's bank in the UK. It was speculated by the prosecution that these calls were the result of Meredith just fumbling with her phone. Hellmann concluded that they were probably the result of someone unfamiliar with the phone fumbling with it.

The 10:13 GPRS connection (uncompleted Internet or SMS connection) This connection/call was handled by the Wind Cell tower across the valley. This call was not likely (although remotely possible) to have been made at the cottage because of that fact.

From Massei's records there were more than 30 calls made by Amanda/Meredith/Raffaele at the cottage from October 31st and November 3rd and every single one of them was handled by the Lupatelli tower only 176 meter away from the cottage with a perfect line of sight. This call however was handled by the Wind Tower which is 1760 meters away from the cottage.

 

[yimyammer]

To me this and other comments make clear why every case involving complex DNA evidence needs a independent expert opinion or assistance in evaluating that evidence. Even criminal judges with years of experience would not be up to date on this complex science.

I agree with that.

I thought we had one in this case with C&V but according to all the PGP (if I am understanding them correctly), they can't be trusted & the recent court decision apparently made their findings worthless.

Who is one to trust when you don't have a firm grip on this subject matter (rhetorical Q)?

 

[Dan O.]

Police engineers brought special equipment to the crime scene and they were able to detect a signal from the Strada Vicinale tower. But apparently they couldn't detect a signal from that tower in the garden where the phone was ultimately found.

Isn't that the one where they didn't actually test from inside the appartment but raised a receiver on a long poll outside Meredith's window. If there was a theory that Meredith was just hanging out (the window) chatting with friends, it might make sense to do it that way.

 

[Grinder]

Not withstanding Rolfe's expertise, it is not clear the death was shortly after 9. The food eaten was sometime between 5:30 and 6:30 as the british girls didn't have a clear timeline (guilty!). The other evidence of phone calls clearly shows that she was dead or out of commission by 9:55.

Rudi's shoe prints show that he did leave but his bloody footprint on the mat show he returned as well as the locked door.

Although he would be concerned about being caught there, he still stayed for a bit to settle, wash off pants and decide what to do.

 

[anglolawyer]

I fail to see what evidence fits that theory, other than perhaps he said that. There are Meredith phone records at 10:10 from the cottage, if she's dead, she didn't make them, if Rudy did, then what was he doing for over 40 minutes after the murder, you would think he might want to get out of there before someone came home. I keep asking but no one can answer, how long did this attack take, was it all over in 5 minutes, 10 maybe, perhaps even an hour, it is unknown.
I would think the attack happened shortly after Meredith got home, I think Rudy left after the last phone activity (10:10) and before the break down car arrived (10:30), I do not think Rudi hand around the house any extra time, she probably died around 10:00.

Don't tell me you're another one who thinks she got home at 10. Sigh. It was 9 p.m. Attacked and dead by 9.15. Give him some time screwing around with the sexual assault, towels, cleaning up, stealing etc then off to Lana's garden which is where the phone was when pinged at 10.13. The physical attack lasted probably seconds, not more than a few minutes probably. No problems with this timeline I can see and numerous circumstantial points support it.

 

[RWVBWL]

FLUSH THE TOILET, Rudy!!!

Answer this,
<snip>
Wouldn't you at least flush your crap in the toilet if you returned?
<snip>

Greetings Dr. Tesla,
Rudy Guede was,
in my humble opinion,
a habitual crap-taking non-toilet flushing kinda dude.

Don't believe me?

Here's a simple quote from John Follian, an apparently, IMHO, pro-guilt author,
speaking about Guede-o hanging out with the boyz downstairs, before Meredith was raped and murdered:
"Stefano Bonassi, one of the students in the flat, had said the 'South African' was so drunk on a visit there that he had fallen asleep on the toilet without flushing it - a detail that reminded Napoleoni that someone failed to flush the toilet in Merdith's flat around the same time she was killed."
Link:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3p...onepage&q=Stefano Bonassi rudy toilet&f=false


Dr.Tesla,
Many of us pro-innocence posters here on the JREF
were guilters a long, long time ago...

With that said, please add this to the list that we have recently given you to help you understand this brutal murder and rape we discuss.:

Rudy Guede did not even flush the toilet on a previous social visit downstairs when he hung out with the boyz.

Why would he do so upstairs?

Reading Follian's passage
I wonder,
was Rudy Guede drunk or high on snif, snif, snif the night he raped and murdered Meredith Kercher?

Hmmmm,
RW

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Don't tell me you're another one who thinks she got home at 10. Sigh. It was 9 p.m. Attacked and dead by 9.15. Give him some time screwing around with the sexual assault, towels, cleaning up, stealing etc then off to Lana's garden which is where the phone was when pinged at 10.13. The physical attack lasted probably seconds, not more than a few minutes probably. No problems with this timeline I can see and numerous circumstantial points support it.

No, she likely got home at 9:05, the attack probably happened shortly after, not too long later I would think, but we don't know, if I knew exactly what time Amanda got there with Rudi, I could give you a better answer. Amanda gets into a heated argument with Meredith about bringing strange guys home again, even though Amanda was only letting Rudi use the washroom. Should I go on.....

 

[RWVBWL]

Unidentified DNA???

Hiya guyz+galz!

I've mentioned before that the unidentified DNA issues kinda bothers me a bit as we discuss this brutal murder case.

Heck, keep this in mind:
The front door to Meredith's flat was proably open all night long!

Was the crime scene secured, before even Amanda arrived home to shower the next morning?
I doubt it!

It is mind boggling to say the least,
especially as I also keep in mind this regarding Filomea's window area:

PS...there is missing hair and blood sample from the window area...it appears the police lost this evidence somewhere, somehow....hummmm

Lost evidence,
unidentified DNA.

What really happended that night?
Who messed up Stefano's downstairs bed?
Who got the cats blood on the lightswitch?
Did Guede-o sleep down there after murdering+raping Merdeith Kercher?
Whose is the female DNA found in front of the flat?
Lastly, I still wonder why Guede-o,
who did not have a girlfriend, was carrying a womens gold watch on him?



Anyways,
I just found this old post from Charlie Wilkes,
It's about Unidentified DNA + worth repeating,
so I quote CW below from Jan. 5, 2011::
"There are many more. I have not included the samples taken from Meredith's body in the summary. Nor have I included many of the samples from Raffaele's apt., samples from Raffaele's car, samples from Guede's apt., samples from the downstairs apt., samples from the kitchen of the cottage, and a few others. These results were not relevant to the prosecution's case or to the defense rebuttals.

Earlier in this discussion, however, I noted that a number of samples revealed unidentified DNA. The police should have gotten reference DNA samples from everyone who lived at or frequented the cottage, just as they did collect reference fingerprints, so they could be sure the unidentified DNA belonged to those people and not another suspect. This basic oversight shows they were only interested in evidence that would support their claims with regard to Amanda and Raffaele. The unidentified donors are as follows:

Male #1, rep. 11, (non-blood) tissue paper found in front of lower apartment entrance

Female #1, rep. 17, (blood) tissue paper found on path from street to cottage

Male #3, rep. 18, (blood) tissue paper found on street

Female #2, rep. 19, (blood) tissue paper found on street; rep. 20, (blood) tissue paper found on street

Male #4, rep. 32, (non-blood) boxer shorts from Sollecito's apt.

Male #5, rep. 47, (non-blood) stained white rag from Sollecito's apt.

Male #6, rep. 101, (non-blood), stain revealed with luminol on kitchen mat from Sollecito's apt.

Male #7, rep. 142, saliva, cigarette butt from kitchen ashtray at cottage; rep. 143, saliva, cigarette butt from kitchen ashtray at cottage; rep. 144, saliva, cigarette butt from kitchen ashtray at cottage

Male #8, rep. 227, (non-blood) tee shirt taken from Sollecito

Notice there is no Male #2. I don't know if they accidentally skipped a number, or if there were other tests besides the ones for which I have the results. In general, the numbering of samples and organizing of results is erratic and inconsistent, and it spans a number of documents that came to me as e-fax TIF files, very poor quality.:

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Not withstanding Rolfe's expertise, it is not clear the death was shortly after 9. The food eaten was sometime between 5:30 and 6:30 as the british girls didn't have a clear timeline (guilty!). The other evidence of phone calls clearly shows that she was dead or out of commission by 9:55.

Rudi's shoe prints show that he did leave but his bloody footprint on the mat show he returned as well as the locked door.Although he would be concerned about being caught there, he still stayed for a bit to settle, wash off pants and decide what to do.

Give me a break, you honestly believe that?

 

[anglolawyer]

No, she likely got home at 9:05, the attack probably happened shortly after, not too long later I would think, but we don't know, if I knew exactly what time Amanda got there with Rudi, I could give you a better answer. Amanda gets into a heated argument with Meredith about bringing strange guys home again, even though Amanda was only letting Rudi use the washroom. Should I go on.....

Sure. Could you maybe say what evidence leads you to your view and complete the account?

 

[Antony]

it's hard to understand what Friends would consider damning evidence against Knox, outside of videotape of them committing the murder. even DNA on the victim's bra clasp doesn't cut it with these guys.

I can tell you: it would be evidence obtained by genuine, honest, impartial police work, that actually demonstrates a connection between Meredith's death and the 2 defendants.

The statements allegedly made by Amanda implicating Patrick Lumumba do not qualify because they were obtained in an all-night interrogation session with no safeguards for her rights.

The claimed DNA results from the kitchen knife and the bra-clasp do not qualify because they were produced by conjuring tricks and were both subjected to contamination at multiple points in the in the collection, storage and testing cycle - and would not prove a connection with the murder even if they were genuine.

The DNA of Amanda in her bathroom, and any footprints of hers - not in blood - in the shared areas of the cottage are not evidence of anything other than that she was one of the people who lived there. The absence of traces of her in the room where the murder took place, is very strong evidence that she was not involved.

 

[Antony]

Name for me, one FOAKer or Guilter that changed their mind because a Guilter/FOAKer came here and convinced him/her otherwise. I also doubt you could find any FOAKer/Guilter that won't tell they originally believed the opposite until they saw all the evidence, one that was being truthful anyway.

I believe JREF member Danceme argued guilt at length but then revised his/her opinion to innocence on the basis of arguments here.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Sure. Could you maybe say what evidence leads you to your view and complete the account?

I'll back up just a bit, Amanda and Raff, by 8:45 had already eaten, had the spill (water), found out she didn't have to work, and by shutting her phone off, would not be called in had it got busy, already watched the movie and Raff was now free from his midnight engagement. It was a Friday night and being students, they had the whole weekend off. Amanda went home to get that mop she talked so much about, no need to wait til morning now that was free, and I bet to change from her work cloths into her going out cloths.
She met Rudi at the basketball court on her way home, they had met before and Rudi had said he liked Amanda so I'm sure they talked. Rudi had to use a washroom and Amanda knew were one was close by. When they get there, again, not sure if Meredith was already there or came shortly after. The argument started with Meredith over Rudi being there and escalated to the point where Rudi came running out of the washroom and attacked Meredith, who ran to her room. Amanda stayed in the kitchen and had to cover her ears at one point to drown out Meredith's scream. Amanda then ran to Raff's to tell him what had happened, I'm sure she had no idea a murder and rape was taking place, likely just an assault. Amanda and Raff returned, with the biggest knife he had in his drawer, Amanda stayed outside, Raff went in and confronted Rudi in the living room, had a few words and ran out of there with Amanda that Rudi saw thru Filomena's window. They walked to the court and sat by a bench where they could keep an eye out for when Rudi left, they also saw the broken down car and waited until it left before they went back. When they returned, they found Meredith's body, Amanda screamed 'the scream' heard at 11:00 to 11:30
They go back to Raff's and decide what to do next, they should have called the police but, being stoned, being just kids and being scared to death, Amanda being somewhat involved, they plan what they will do. Lock Meredith's door, put the Dubai over the body, stage a break in and plan Saturday and how the body will be discovered.
There is a min version, what evidence does not fit into that?