Biblical Flood? Fish, squid, and shrimp fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru

[Akhenaten]

You captured the bear perfectly!
GoodONya!

(Can one nominate a cartoon?)

Oh my wordy lordy yes.

 

[Evolved Wookie]

Oh my wordy lordy yes.

Your holy light shines upon me, oh Pharaoh!



...so I'm up to page 20 now - anything change between there and here? No...wait...don't spoil it. I have to get my excitement from somewhere.

 

[Cheesy One]

This lurker finds this statement to be completely unfounded. Any others? How 'bout it? Has DOC made anyone think there's something to this flood story? Anyone?

I second this. All he has done is make himself look more ridiculous. I didn't believe it before and if this "evidence" is the best that can be produced it only solidifies my stance on the subject.

On another note I suspect one day scientists may uncover the fossilized remains of DOC's credibility, buried on the peaks of some mountain.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Your holy light shines upon me, oh Pharaoh!



...so I'm up to page 20 now - anything change between there and here? No...wait...don't spoil it. I have to get my excitement from somewhere.

...the Butler did it. With a Volcano. In the Carbon-14 room.

 

[Hellbound]

I second this. All he has done is make himself look more ridiculous. I didn't believe it before and if this "evidence" is the best that can be produced it only solidifies my stance on the subject.

On another note I suspect one day scientists may uncover the fossilized remains of DOC's credibility, buried on the peaks of some mountain.

I don't think there's any evidence that credibility, as ascribed to DOC, ever happened.

 

[Cheesy One]

I don't think there's any evidence that credibility, as ascribed to DOC, ever happened.

True enough, my mistake.

 

[InkBlotTest]

I think many who have read this thread will now think there is something to this flood story, at least something more so than they thought before they read the thread.

I'm just putting info out there like this:

Carbon dating can only be used on materials that are less than about 50,000 years old, so it can't be used on fossils.
The ages of fossils are generally constrained by radiometric dating of suitable rocks (i.e. igneous or metamorphic) in proximity to their containing strata within the lithological sequence.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_are_the_ages_of_fossils_determined

But remember these fossils in Lebanon are in great shape and many like octopus are fully formed which is rare. This leads to the conclusion that the marine life was quickly covered while the marine life was alive.

DOC.

So far you have failed to explain how 85 million year old rocks that surround fossils that (according to your posts) may, or may not be 85 million years old, are evidence for a worldwide flood on a planet that was supposed to have been created c6000 years ago. Please explain how this works.

IBT

 

[Dinwar]

Carbon dating can only be used on materials that are less than about 50,000 years old, so it can't be used on fossils.

Huh. So......what method did I use to date that 15,000 year old packrat midden? Could have sworn it was C14....That's what the invoice said, anyway.

The ages of fossils are generally constrained by radiometric dating of suitable rocks (i.e. igneous or metamorphic) in proximity to their containing strata within the lithological sequence.

Actually....no. We identify certain fossils--called index fossils--that way, and use THOSE to identify the age of other fossils. Bison antiquis is a major one here in California, for example. We find B. antiquis horn cores, we know we're dealing with pre-Rancholabrean stuff. One reason people like me, doing salvage paleontology, are important is that we functionally test that hypothesis.

But remember these fossils in Lebanon are in great shape and many like octopus are fully formed which is rare. This leads to the conclusion that the marine life was quickly covered while the marine life was alive.

True. However, that's not that rare--nor does it demand a young Earth or global flood. A local mudslide or turbidity current can rapidly bury critters and fits perfectly into a Neocatastraphist or Uniformitarianist (sensu lato) worldview.

 

[catsmate]

You forgot the shoots where the animal excrement flows upward and then overboard (no, I'm not making that up; it's an argument that was made on this forum).

Don't forget the methane powered lighting, heating and cooking facilities..............

BTW, did you know that Noah refused to let vultures on the ark?

When they approached the ark they were carrying two dead rats each for provisions and Noah said "Sorry, only one piece of carrion per passenger."

Been flying Ryanair?

The least of Pharaoh's servants is still trying to cope with the image of swimming corals and volcano-ejected tunnelweb spiders raining down from the skies.
The image of the local streams here seething with bullsharks is too, too much on a post-Saturday night morning.

So that's how the drop bears got started.

 

[Rincewind]

Anyone who thinks there was a biblical type flood after reading this thread, please weigh in.

And not me either.

If it was a local flood it couldn't have caused the damage that Noah's Flood apparently caused.

If you're using the fossils to prove the Biblical flood, then you're millions of years out, so that rules out Noah (and all humans?).

So - double failure...

Congratulations DOC!

 

[Rincewind]

The face is definitely fake. It's not the way a face would be if it was wrapped in cloth, it's the kind of face you see in paintings. It was put there by an artist that didn't expect it to be challenged in any serious fashion.

Well done!

Possibly the best brief summary I've read!

 

[Elizabeth I]

100% correct (naturally). It's an Eocene herring (Genus: Knightia) from the "18-inch layer" in the Fossil Lake area of the Green River formation.

Would that make it a green herring instead of a red one in this case? Because there have already been way too many red herrings.

I don't blame you for not seeing it because Mojo made the explanation so small when he changed my post to say this:

The bible talks of a {Completely impossible}* worldwide flood...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=9205494#post9205494

I think this kind of stuff hurts the image of some skeptics.

 

[Correa Neto]

Not at all. I think you downplayed the importance of such a thing--particularly when you said: Something CAN BE Atlantis, and still contradict Plato's description--because Plato could easily have been wrong. He was wrong on a lot of other points, after all.

I understand what you are saying. I don't agree completely, however. Note I am talking about a mythical subject itself made real, and not an inspiration or a primer for it. Something we knew first from myths and later we learned to be real. Sure the myth may not describe with complete accuracy this "thing", but it must be close enough. How close it must be is of course a subject for debate.

An elephant (mammoth, mastodon, whatever) skull may be at the roots of cyclops myth, may even have been presented as the skull of a cyclops, but its not a cyclops. Cyclops are nothing but a fantasy.

A large local flood may have been the primer for the "original" flood myth, but it still will not be the universal deluge. The universal deluge is nothing but a fantasy.

Of course, regarding Atlantis, I will STFU, eat cold crow soup and drink lots of ale in honor to the fallen Atlanteans as soon as someone finds something like a sign written "Welcome to Atlantis", say, at Akrotiri. Oh, the sign must be of the right age.

 

[TimCallahan]

Roman/Jewish historian Josephus (who was married in Egypt) wrote as history that Moses had lived in Egypt and was even a general in the Egyptian army at one time.

Yes, Josephus did say that. He also said that, while he was a prince of Egypt he married an Ethiopian (Cushite) princess named Tharbis (Antiquities Book 2, chapter 10, item 2). This was supposed to be the Cushite wife to whom Aaron and Miriam objected (Num. 12:1). In fact, the "Cushite" woman Moses married, Zipporah, was from Midian, which was also called Cushan (see Habakkuk 3:7).

Josephus also accepted as fact Alexander the Great built an iron gate in a pass in the Caucasus mountains to keep out the Sarmatians, often identified as Gog and Magog (see Jewish Wars book 7, chapter 7, item 4). Alexander's iron gates are part of a corpus of legends that grew up around Alexander. As with the story that he hitched two griffins to his chariot and flew up to heaven, there is no truth to the story of Alexander's Gate.

Josephus was quite accurate dealing with contemporary affairs and recent history. However, when it came to history before his time, he simply accepted what others had written. Therefore, his account of Moses as a prince and general in Egypt amounts to nothing more than his repeating Jewish legend.

 

[TimCallahan]

DOC, my question - which i ask for the third time - still stands:

Are you willing to propose a pass / fail test or accept someone else's pass / fail test for a scientific theory of the flood; and are you willing to accept the verdict of such a test - just as I would have to accept the verdict, falsifying evolution, of a mammalian fossil embedded in Cambrian strata along with trilobites - should the result of this this test be a fail?

If you will not subject flood theory to a pass / fail test, then your adherence to it is intellectually dishonest.

So, how about it, DOC - or anyone else - can you think of a pass / fail test for the biblical flood?

 

[Craig B]

In fact, the "Cushite" woman Moses married, Zipporah, was from Midian, which was also called Cushan

That so? Well, I've heard of "in-law problems" but this is a bit over the top as a way of dealing with them! Numbers 31.

1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeanceon them. 4 ... 7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man ... 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder ... 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. 15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” ... 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

 

[Correa Neto]

Charming nice fellow this Moses...

 

[DOC]

And here you go again, repeating the same lie. The only reason for you addressing carbon dating is because you dishonestly altered another's post to introduce carbon dating. Nobody mentioned carbon dating at all, until you dishonestly introduced the topic by altering someone else's post to make it read differently than intended.

Same ol', attack the messenger ad hom strategy. Your conclusions are false as I already explained. If you or anyone else don't believe me---with regard to this latest get DOC episode--- so be it.

 

[smartcooky]

That so? Well, I've heard of "in-law problems" but this is a bit over the top as a way of dealing with them! Numbers 31.

1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeanceon them. 4 ... 7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man ... 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder ... 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. 15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” ... 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Oooh, nice one; keep the virgins and kill the rest. What a family-friendly book!!

A large local flood may have been the primer for the "original" flood myth, but it still will not be the universal deluge. The universal deluge is nothing but a fantasy.

Nonetheless, discussion of this is still valid.

The OP argues the premise that...

Marine fossils in high places = evidence for the reality of the Noachian Flood

If one disagrees with that premise, one can argue against it from two angles;

1 - the fossils
2 - the flood

I know very little about fossils, only what an "average layman" might know; although I can Google as well as anyone on the subject. However, I am well read on the subject of the ancient peoples of Mesopotamia, strongly believed to be the source of the Noachian flood myth. I have quite a number books on this subject, by Crawford, Woolley, Michanowsky, Sassoon et al. They contain the type of information that cannot easily be Googled.

Now I can bring to the table what I know of the mytho-history of Mesopotamia as my contribution to attacking the second part of the premise, while others like Dinwar can bring their considerable experience with the formation and age of fossils, to attack the first part of the premise.

I don't see where the problem is with that approach.

 

[DOC]

That so? Well, I've heard of "in-law problems" but this is a bit over the top as a way of dealing with them! Numbers 31.

I thought many skeptics didn't believe Moses existed. And if he was perfect, Christ would have never needed to come.