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Biblical Flood? Fish, squid, and shrimp fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru

Yet, we have examples of fossilized land animals. So clearly, the process is possible for land animals and NOT just marine life. As such, your comment above is simply wrong.
Then where are all the land animal fossils in the mountain area of Lebanon where they are finding the fish fossils (20% of world's fish fossils, at least according to a Globe Trekker show). Don't they have land animals in that area?
 
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Created by God?

Sorry - don't know what came over me....

<smartass>

Thy both have salt in them, it's just the amount that differs. Unless you have distilled/deionized water, it always has some salt content.

Of course that just means that gawd has some mighty fine water purification plant up there....

</smartass>

Greetings,

Chris
 
Then where are all the land animal fossils in the mountain area of Lebanon where they are finding the fish fossils (20% of world's fish fossils, at least according to a Globe Trekker show). Don't they have land animals in that area?

DOC: do you have any understanding, any at all, about how fossils form? Have you provided a citation for that "20% of the world's fish fossils", or are you just going to mumble "Globe Trekker"?

Are you ever going to address the issue of what 85-million-year-old fossils in Peru have to do with a 6,000-year-old fludde legend in Mesopotamia
?
 
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...So... how exactly am I supposed to attempt to explain how real flooding events inspired stories of the fictional Biblical flooding event if I can't mention any flooding event but the Biblical one?

Well, it's clear the biblical account is based on earlier Sumerian stories, rather than observation of real events, please correct me if I'm wrong.
This means that any discussion of the biblical story have to take this as the primary source, rather than events related to the end of any particular glaciation.


So you believe the water that covered the earth would either be salt water or fresh water and not a mixture?

And there are marine life that can live in both like the well known Salmon.

DOC, do you understand why the salmon lives in both salt and fresh water?
And fossils.
Have you learned what fossils are yet?
 
Then where are all the land animal fossils in the mountain area of Lebanon where they are finding the fish fossils (20% of world's fish fossils, at least according to a Globe Trekker show). Don't they have land animals in that area?

Yeah they do. Those were on land, not in the sea. What, you want mass donkey suicide by drowning in order to mix their fossils with the fish?

There are no donkey fossils because donkeys were not wandering the prehistoric seabeds.
 
Then where are all the land animal fossils in the mountain area of Lebanon where they are finding the fish fossils (20% of world's fish fossils, at least according to a Globe Trekker show). Don't they have land animals in that area?

DOC, your linked source explains that pretty clearly.
You read and understood the article you yourself cited, I presume?
 
...Well there's the amber trade route to start with. We have found pieces of amber that are archeologicaly linked to prehistoric sites in Northern Europe that originated from the eastern end of the Mediteranian.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...id=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21102154479741
Then there's the 'Venus Figurines'.
As I'm sure you're aware, Venus Figurines are prehistoric statuettes of women portrayed with similar physical attributes from the Upper Palaeolithic, mostly found in Europe, but with finds as far east as Irkutsk Oblast, Siberia, extending their distribution to much of Eurasia. They are considered to represent some form of mother goddess. The different examples of Venus Figurines would seem to be obviously linked to each other but have been found in greatly varying places around the globe, suggesting that some sort of prehistoric global cultural exchange must have been going on, which suggests ancient trade routes.

We also see what looks like the cultural spread of certain tools and weapons from the East across Europe, such as adzes, polished axe heads, certain types of pottery, leaf-shaped arrowheads, etc, etc.

That's your source?
An 80 year article from the National Geographic?
Seriously?

When the water receded, the marine life would continue to go where the water was and would still be alive and thus not mixed with the skeletons. The skeletons could have been broken apart by bull sharks (capable of living in salt and fresh water) and other sharks and also broken up by waves pounding on the shore as the water receded. Those skeletons that remained, if any, could have ended up like the millions of buffalo skeletons(there are few buffalo fossils in spite of multi-millions of buffalo) dissolving on the ground as they are exposed to the hot sun, decomposition, and other animals.

Hey don't the Pharaoh and me get a nod?

No.
 
Then where are all the land animal fossils in the mountain area of Lebanon where they are finding the fish fossils (20% of world's fish fossils, at least according to a Globe Trekker show). Don't they have land animals in that area?


I posted a primer for you earlier

http://www.oum.ox.ac.uk/thezone/fossils/intro/form.htm



Fossils generally cannot form without water.

Fossils like those in Lebanon and Peru are formed by layering of sediment on the ocean floor over millions of years. They end op on land due mostly to tectonic activity.

Fossils of land animals are formed when animals become trapped and die in mud holes, and bogs or when they drown in lakes that subsequently dry up.

Land animal fossils can also be formed by dessication, but it is very, very rare for this to happen.

And remember, that fossils only represent the tiniest fraction of all the living things that ever lived.
 
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When the water receded, the marine life would continue to go where the water was and would still be alive and thus not mixed with the skeletons. The skeletons could have been broken apart by bull sharks (capable of living in salt and fresh water) and other sharks and also broken up by waves pounding on the shore as the water receded. Those skeletons that remained, if any, could have ended up like the millions of buffalo skeletons(there are few buffalo fossils in spite of multi-millions of buffalo) dissolving on the ground as they are exposed to the hot sun, decomposition, and other animals.
Check post 1030... Bait, hook and sink!
Guess I can make some money as a neopentecostal pastor!

LOL AND BEHOLD, BROTHERS AND SISTERS!

Send money!
 
Then where are all the land animal fossils in the mountain area of Lebanon where they are finding the fish fossils (20% of world's fish fossils, at least according to a Globe Trekker show). Don't they have land animals in that area?
because those fossils were from sea beds and not from land.
BTW, have you decided if it was a world wide flood or a local flood?
What does that say about the story and the accompanying incest?
 
I posted a primer for you earlier

http://www.oum.ox.ac.uk/thezone/fossils/intro/form.htm



Fossils generally cannot form without water.

Fossils like those in Lebanon and Peru are formed by layering of sediment on the ocean floor over millions of years. They end op on land due mostly to tectonic activity.

Fossils of land animals are formed when animals become trapped and die in mud holes, and bogs or when they drown in lakes that subsequently dry up.

Land animal fossils can also be formed by dessication, but it is very, very rare for this to happen.

And remember, that fossils only represent the tiniest fraction of all the living things that ever lived.

Thanks for the explanations.
I think that link is quite useful for people who don't understand what fossils are.
 
When the water receded, the marine life would continue to go where the water was and would still be alive and thus not mixed with the skeletons.
Right. I've got a clear picture of coral swimming away. :rolleyes:

I know this will be a startling revelation even to the scientists among us, but all marine life are not mobile.
 
As I said earlier, they could have already been fossilized before the flood, and stirred up during the "breaking up of the fountains of the great deep" (the wording used in the bible). If they were located in the great deep, land skeletons would not be mixed with them. Since they were fossilized and encased in rock they would have lasted whereas the skeletons of land animals and humans would not have survived for the reasons given in post 1048.

Shipman's book on taphonomy proved you wrong 30 years ago. Not "indicated you were wrong", but PROVED IT. Skeletons don't decay the way you're describing.
 
No exaggeration there--it was on "1,000 Ways to Die".

So.....this guy is saying that the world is three times older than the entire universe. :boggled:
First you complain because some people say the earth is only 6,000 years old. Now you're complaining because somebody else said it was 40 billion years old. Aren't you ever satisfied? :p
 
Right. I've got a clear picture of coral swimming away. :rolleyes: ...

That's almost as disquieting an image as the volcano-ejected tunnelweb spiders.



Referring to the marine fossils of the OP, DOC wrote
As I said earlier, they could have already been fossilized before the flood, and stirred up during the "breaking up of the fountains of the great deep" (the wording used in the bible). If they were located in the great deep, land skeletons would not be mixed with them. Since they were fossilized and encased in rock they would have lasted whereas the skeletons of land animals and humans would not have survived for the reasons given in post 1048.

DOC, how long did it take for those fossils of the 'great deep' to form?
 
When the water receded, the marine life would continue to go where the water was and would still be alive and thus not mixed with the skeletons. The skeletons could have been broken apart by bull sharks (capable of living in salt and fresh water) and other sharks and also broken up by waves pounding on the shore as the water receded.
What bull sharks? Acording to the Genesis account, Noah had to take seven pairs of every clean animal and every bird, and one pair of every other creature, to keep their kind alive. God killed everything else apparently, otherwise there would have been no need for Noah to save at least one pair of 'every' creature, so according to the story, at that point in the story, there were just two bull sharks in existence, the ones in Noah's Ark, which must have had some form of fish tank built within it.
The same naturaly goes for any other species you want to blame for eating the remains of all the dead people and creatures after the flood. According to the Biblical account, the only creatures to survive were the ones on Noah's Ark, they couldn't possibly have eaten everything else once they were released, it'd be like me expecting you to eat a cake that's the same size as a skyscraper.
So that leaves an obvious question, where are all the remains of of all the creatures and people that died in the flood? If it happened, there should be an archeological layer packed full of remains that dates to around '2348 BC'..... because, as I'm sure you're aware, the Masoretic text of the Torah places the 'Great Deluge' as happening '1,656 years after Creation', which, according to the Biblical geneology lists, happened in 4004 BC, giving us a date of 2348 BC for the flood.

The Biblical dating of the flood brings up another puzzling question too. Y'see, historicaly, around that time, the sixth dynasty of Egypt was just starting, and the dynasties of Egypt continued pretty much unbroken up until the thirty-first dynasty of Egypt (343 BC to 332 BC) after which Egypt was handed over to Alexander the Great.
So how could this be? If what the Bible says is true, then the Egyptian Empire should have ended in 2348 BC with the deaths of every person on the planet apart from Noah and his family, so how could the Egyptian Empire have not only continued through the flood but actualy grown and flourished after it?
The same question can be asked of the Akkadian Empire too, which started in 2340 BC and continued for 160 years until 2180 BC. If everyone apart from Noah and his family were killed in the flood in 2348 BC, then where did all the people who made up the Egyptian and Akkadian Empires suddenly appear from? And why didn't the Egyptians (or the Akkadians) record a global flood happening at the beginning of their sixth dynasty? It's not as if it's something that they wouldn't notice.

Also, come on now, you've been avoiding this question for days now, even though I have politely asked you for an answer every day since I first asked it, and to be fair, your avoidence of it isn't doing your credibility any favours whatsoever, so how about finaly answering that question of 'if the Book of Genesis has been changed from the original scripture, as you yourself have claimed elsewhere in this thread, and if that original scripture is lost to history, then how can you possibly know that the changed 'copies' that we read today are still a trustable source?'
 
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Logically, if this flood happened, we would find several areas where skeletal remains of land animals are mixed with those of marine creatures.


When the water receded, the marine life would continue to go where the water was and would still be alive . . .


DOC, you started off by trying to claim that the marine critters were already fossils which were stirred up by your imaginary volcanoes and deposited with younger sediments. Now they're all not only suddenly alive again but living in fresh water.


. . . and thus not mixed with the skeletons.


How did the skeletons of the marine critters, the riverine critters and the land critters manage to get sorted out into different deposits when according to you the world was one giant ocean of fossil-and-skeleton soup being stirred up by underwater volcanoes?


The skeletons could have been broken apart by bull sharks (capable of living in salt and fresh water) and other sharks and also broken up by waves pounding on the shore as the water receded.


Oh, for Thoth's sake, DOC.

You'd never even heard of bloody bull sharks until I happened to mention them a few posts back and now you're crediting them with shaping the fossil record. What an utterly ridiculous argument.

Apart from anything else, you've now put yourself in the position of having to explain why we didn't end up with oceans, lakes and rivers full of nothing but bull sharks.


Those skeletons that remained, if any, could have ended up like the millions of buffalo skeletons(there are few buffalo fossils in spite of multi-millions of buffalo) dissolving on the ground as they are exposed to the hot sun, decomposition, and other animals.


You still haven't bothered to learn what fossils actually are, have you?
 
If all the marine life was still alive, where the heck did all the fossils in your OP come from? If those were fossils kicked up by your impossible volcanoes, Tim's question holds. Why are only marine fossils kicked up by your impossible volcanoes?...


As I said earlier, they could have already been fossilized before the flood, and stirred up during the "breaking up of the fountains of the great deep" (the wording used in the bible).


Apart from the fact that you, and you alone, have arbitrarily translated the wording used in the bible into "volcanoes", you can't use anything in that stupid book as evidence for itself.



If they were located in the great deep, land skeletons would not be mixed with them.


And if they were located on the Moon, which only formed from the Earth 275 years ago then we wouldn't have found them at all until 1969.



Since they were fossilized and encased in rock they would have lasted whereas the skeletons of land animals and humans would not have survived for the reasons given in post 1048.


The reasons given in Post #1048 don't even rise to the level of a sad joke.
 
What bull sharks? Acording to the Genesis account, Noah had to take seven pairs of every clean animal and every bird, and one pair of every other creature, to keep their kind alive. God killed everything else apparently, otherwise there would have been no need for Noah to save at least one pair of 'every' creature, so according to the story, at that point in the story, there were just two bull sharks in existence, the ones in Noah's Ark, which must have had some form of fish tank built within it. ...

Well, SB, if you're not happy with the bull sharks, there's always sea pigs, as featured in the video linked to in this post
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9200901&postcount=19

As an aside, we've yet to consider how those denizens of the deeps survived in the ark.
 

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