Biblical Flood? Fish, squid, and shrimp fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru

[Akhenaten]

<not the biblical flood>

Reports of these events would have been passed down the generations oraly and eventualy became stories that were exaggerated until we have something along the lines of the Biblical version of the flood.

OK then, since DOC doesn't seem to be willing to answer, perhaps you can.

What do the events in your scenario have to do with fish, squid, and shrimp fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru?

 

[pakeha]

...Reports of these events would have been passed down the generations oraly and eventualy became stories that were exaggerated until we have something along the lines of the Biblical version of the flood.

You mean the Sumerian flood story, right?
Do you have any sources for those remains of trade routes joining the Near East with Northern Europe prior to the rising of sea levels at the end of the last glaciation period you mentioned here?

"...We actualy have strong archeological evidence of prehistoric trade routes that stretched from the Middle East to Northern Europe that predate the rising of sea levels at the end of the last glaciation oeriod by quite a long time. News could easily travel along such routes. "

I can't find much on the subject, myself.
Thanks!

 

[SlackerBabbath]

No, there is not. Inverted commas notwithstanding.


Please don't try to redefine for those here assembled the meaning of 'worldwide'.

I absolutely guarantee it won't end well.

I'm just using the usual accepted definition of something that is extending throughout the world, but doesn't necessarily affect every single part of it, like a 'worldwide epidemic' for example.
We've had several of those but so far they've all failed to affect every member of the human species

But we're not talking about a flood that covered all trace of land all over the world, as the Biblical version states. . .

Yes we are.

Ok, well in that case allow me to re-word that, I'm not talking about a worldwide flood that covered all trace of land all over the world, as the Biblical version states, I'm talking about a worldwide flood that just affected coastlines all over the world.

OK then, since DOC doesn't seem to be willing to answer, perhaps you can.

What do the events in your scenario have to do with fish, squid, and shrimp fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru?

Surely that would seem obvious?

Mountains form via geological forces pushing land up, resulting in ancient sea-beds (which include fossils of ancient sea creatures) becoming part of mountains.
Millions of years later humanity flourishes, the Ice Age happens, then when the ice receeds water levels start to rise and flooding events happen, stories of these events are passed on to the next generation, who in turn pass them on down further generations and via the Chinese Whispers effect the story becomes something along the lines of the Biblical event.
People like DOC see fossils of sea creatures on mountains, put 2 and 2 together and get 5 and consider it to be evidence of a flood on the Biblical scale that never actualy happened.

Simple really.

You mean the Sumerian flood story, right?
Do you have any sources for those remains of trade routes joining the Near East with Northern Europe prior to the rising of sea levels at the end of the last glaciation period you mentioned here?

"...We actualy have strong archeological evidence of prehistoric trade routes that stretched from the Middle East to Northern Europe that predate the rising of sea levels at the end of the last glaciation oeriod by quite a long time. News could easily travel along such routes. "

I can't find much on the subject, myself.
Thanks!

Well there's the amber trade route to start with. We have found pieces of amber that are archeologicaly linked to prehistoric sites in Northern Europe that originated from the eastern end of the Mediteranian.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.23...id=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21102154479741
Then there's the 'Venus Figurines'.
As I'm sure you're aware, Venus Figurines are prehistoric statuettes of women portrayed with similar physical attributes from the Upper Palaeolithic, mostly found in Europe, but with finds as far east as Irkutsk Oblast, Siberia, extending their distribution to much of Eurasia. They are considered to represent some form of mother goddess. The different examples of Venus Figurines would seem to be obviously linked to each other but have been found in greatly varying places around the globe, suggesting that some sort of prehistoric global cultural exchange must have been going on, which suggests ancient trade routes.

We also see what looks like the cultural spread of certain tools and weapons from the East across Europe, such as adzes, polished axe heads, certain types of pottery, leaf-shaped arrowheads, etc, etc.

 

[DOC]

Evidence of a great, worldwide flood should show evidence of terrestrial creatures, including human skeletons, mixed in with the marine deposits.

Not necessarily if those marine fossils we see today were already fossils when they got stirred up by the "breaking up of the fountains of the great deep" (as the bible describes). Also, remember the flood subsided after 150 days so it would have left a terrible mess of trees, animals, and human remains left out in the sun to rot and decompose. Being left out in the open like this could have caused decomposition much like the American buffalo which left few fossils in spite of numbering in the multi-millions. This mess also could have become part of the world's oil supply. Notice how for some strange reason there is an incredible amount of oil right next to Lebanon in Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

From the article:

The Mysterious Origin and Supply of Oil
Ker Than

...A so-called fossil fuel, petroleum is believed by most scientists to be the transformed remains of long dead organisms. The majority of petroleum is thought to come from the fossils of plants and tiny marine organisms. Larger animals might contribute to the mix as well...

http://www.livescience.com/9404-mysterious-origin-supply-oil.html

Also for 150 days or more marine life would have fed on the human and animal remains, so there might not have been much left; and that which was left was left exposed to the sun to decompose, and to possibly be eaten by those animals which were taken with Noah.

 

[zooterkin]

Before it goes much further...

From the Book of Moderation 2:1-5
¹This thread is about Noah's Flood and the evidence thereof.² To that end, New Testament events cannot be shoehorned into being even remotely on topic.

³Stay on topic. ⁴Stay civil. ⁵The topics is not the other posters

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis

.

Here endeth the lesson

From the Book of Moderation 2:6-9
⁶And a warning having been issued, it shall be incumbent upon all to be mindful thereof.
⁷One way of being off topic having been mentioned does not endow legitimacy upon others.

⁸Unto to the outer darkness of AAH have been consigned some posts which, verily, had strayed from the true path of this thread. Yea, even though they did include some fine works of the mighty Pharaoh, and their dismissal did provoke much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
⁹ Attend to the words of brother mortis, lest further plagues be visited upon thy house:

³Stay on topic. ⁴Stay civil. ⁵The topic is not the other posters​

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin

.

 

[Akhenaten]

Ok, well in that case allow me to re-word that, I'm not talking about a worldwide flood that covered all trace of land all over the world, as the Biblical version states, I'm talking about a worldwide flood that just affected coastlines all over the world.

You might want to check the thread title and the OP then, because the biblical version of the flood is the actual topic at hand.

 

[Akhenaten]

Not necessarily if those marine fossils we see today were already fossils when they got stirred up by the "breaking up of the fountains of the great deep" (as the bible describes).

And once again we return to your apparent premise that the fossils in the mountains of Lebanon and Peru got to where they are during the last 6,000 years.

Also, remember the flood subsided after 150 days so it would have left a terrible mess of trees, animals, and human remains left out in the sun to rot and decompose. Being left out in the open like this could have caused decomposition much like the American buffalo which left few fossils in spite of numbering in the multi-millions. This mess also could have become part of the world's oil supply. Notice how for some reason there is an incredible amount of oil close to Lebanon in Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

Are you really trying to claim that the material that formed the world's oil supply was deposited at the time of the flood?

You really need to get that chronology posted so we know what it is that you're trying to claim here.

Also for 150 days or more marine life would be able to feed on the human and animal remains, so there might not be much left; and that which was left was left exposed to the sun to decompose, and to possibly be eaten by those animals which were taken with Moses.

No, the marine life would all have been dead because it couldn't live in fresh water.

Alternatively, all the fresh water life would have been dead because it couldn't live in salt water.

Which was it, DOC?

 

[SlackerBabbath]

Not necessarily if those marine fossils we see today were already fossils when they got stirred up by the "breaking up of the fountains of the great deep" (as the bible describes). Also, remember the flood subsided after 150 days so it would have left a terrible mess of trees, animals, and human remains left out in the sun to rot and decompose. Being left out in the open like this could have caused decomposition much like the American buffalo which left few fossils in spite of numbering in the multi-millions. This mess also could have become part of the world's oil supply. Notice how for some strange reason there is an incredible amount of oil close to Lebanon in Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

From the article:

The Mysterious Origin and Supply of Oil
Ker Than

...A so-called fossil fuel, petroleum is believed by most scientists to be the transformed remains of long dead organisms. The majority of petroleum is thought to come from the fossils of plants and tiny marine organisms. Larger animals might contribute to the mix as well...

http://www.livescience.com/9404-mysterious-origin-supply-oil.html

Also for 150 days or more marine life would have fed on the human and animal remains, so there might not have been much left; and that which was left was left exposed to the sun to decompose, and to possibly be eaten by those animals which were taken with Moses.

Hey DOC, while you're here, how about answering that question you've been avoiding for the past couple of days of 'if the Book of Genesis has been changed from the original scripture, as you yourself have claimed, then how do you know that the changed 'copies' that we read today are still a trustable source?'

You might want to check the thread title and the OP then, because the biblical version of the flood is the actual topic at hand.

So... how exactly am I supposed to attempt to explain how real flooding events inspired stories of the fictional Biblical flooding event if I can't mention any flooding event but the Biblical one?

 

[DOC]

No, the marine life would all have been dead because it couldn't live in fresh water.

Alternatively, all the fresh water life would have been dead because it couldn't live in salt water.

So you believe the water that covered the earth would either be salt water or fresh water and not a mixture?

And there are marine life that can live in both like the well known Salmon.

 

[SlackerBabbath]

So you believe the water that covered the earth would either be salt water or fresh water and not a mixture?

And there are marine life that can live in both like the well known Salmon.

So how would explain the presence of creatures that can only live in sea water and creatures that can only live in fresh water today?

Surely if what you are suggesting is true, then such creatures would naturaly have reached the end of their lines and become extinct during the Biblical flood, leaving us with just sea creatures that can survive in either both sea and fresh water or a mixture of both

 

[zooterkin]

So you believe the water that covered the earth would either be salt water or fresh water and not a mixture?

What do you think you get when you mix salt water and fresh water?

And there are marine life that can live in both like the well known Salmon.

How many others? And you do know that the young salmon has to wait until its body changes to cope before it can leave fresh water and enter salt water? It doesn't have the ability to switch between the two at will. Most salmon die when they return to fresh water to spawn.

Are you seriously suggesting that all aquatic life (not marine life; "marine" refers to the sea) magically adapted to living in salt water for the duration of your supposed global flood?

Are you still seriously suggesting that the fossils in Peru and Lebanon are signs of the flood story told in Genesis being true?

 

[joobz]

So you believe the water that covered the earth would either be salt water or fresh water and not a mixture?

And there are marine life that can live in both like the well known Salmon.

DOC, do an experiment for me:
Take a cup of salt water and drink it a small bit.
now, take a cup of fresh water and drink a small bit.
NEXT, take the cups and mix them together.
Do you have a cup of salt water, fresh water or is it both?

 

[leonAzul]

What's the first thing you notice about New Orleans on this map, DOC?

Wait, I know this one.

It's the same color as Uruguay, which means it's a different color to Peru or Lebanon and can't be on topic.

 

[smartcooky]

Being left out in the open like this could have caused decomposition much like the American buffalo which left few fossils in spite of numbering in the multi-millions.

Err DOC, you DO understand how biological material gets fossilized, don't you?

Here's a quick primer for you

http://www.oum.ox.ac.uk/thezone/fossils/intro/form.htm

The bodies of buffalo are never going to be fossilized in types of conditions found in the North American grasslands.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Not MY bulk! Storage of bulk items. Like a chair, tables, and "I don't know where this is going to go, so it goes here!"

GAKK! I'm currently moving.

 

[RoboTimbo]

So you believe the water that covered the earth would either be salt water or fresh water and not a mixture?

No DOC, that's what YOU have to believe to explain the presence of fish which can only tolerate one or the other.

And there are marine life that can live in both like the well known Salmon.

So you believe that the only fish alive in the world today is the salmon?

 

[Akhenaten]

From the Book of Moderation 2:6-9
⁶And a warning having been issued, it shall be incumbent upon all to be mindful thereof.
⁷One way of being off topic having been mentioned does not endow legitimacy upon others.

⁸Unto to the outer darkness of AAH have been consigned some posts which, verily, had strayed from the true path of this thread. Yea, even though they did include some fine works of the mighty Pharaoh, and their dismissal did provoke much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
⁹ Attend to the words of brother mortis, lest further plagues be visited upon thy house:

³Stay on topic. ⁴Stay civil. ⁵The topic is not the other posters​

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: zooterkin

.

All is well. My thanks, as always, for everything you do.

Yer blood's worth bottlin', as they say.

 

[Akhenaten]

So you believe the water that covered the earth would either be salt water or fresh water and not a mixture?

And there are marine life that can live in both like the well known Salmon.

So how would explain the presence of creatures that can only live in sea water and creatures that can only live in fresh water today?


Surely if what you are suggesting is true, then such creatures would naturaly have reached the end of their lines and become extinct during the Biblical flood, leaving us with just sea creatures that can survive in either both sea and fresh water or a mixture of both.

Couldn't have put it better myself, so rather than try I'll just offer a tip of my hat and a sincere "Well said!"

 

[Akhenaten]

What's the first thing you notice about New Orleans on this map, DOC?

Wait, I know this one.

It's the same color as Uruguay, which means it's a different color to Peru or Lebanon and can't be on topic.

Red flag!

Does not refer to any specific post by alleged heretic Sir Gerardus Mercator.

 

[Dinwar]

So you believe the water that covered the earth would either be salt water or fresh water and not a mixture?

And there are marine life that can live in both like the well known Salmon.

You want us to tell you the composition of sea water we don't believe exists. That'll happen sometime after protons all decay.

And while some marine organisms can survive in fresh water, most tend to die. Ever hear of osmotic pressure?