General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[Natan]

Yes, some of the estimated 1500 twins used as test subjects were killed in Auschwitz so their irises could be sent to Berlin for further research.

Except that the sources you gave seem to suggest "gypsy" children were used as a source of eyes, which makes more sense than twins (why use twins specifically). There is claimed to have been a lot of interest in inmates with heterochromia and the co-occurrence of heterochromia AND twins is rather low. I'm also yet to see a more direct source confirming this "confession" of Karin Magnussen.

 

[Crossbow]

So you believe the Nazis were successful in destroying these documents?

The Nazis were partially successful in destroying documents which showed their war crimes.

However, most of the Nazi documentation survived the war as did the documentation which has been quite useful in providing proof of Nazi war crimes.

 

[Nick Terry]

Except that the sources you gave seem to suggest "gypsy" children were used as a source of eyes, which makes more sense than twins (why use twins specifically). There is claimed to have been a lot of interest in inmates with heterochromia and the co-occurrence of heterochromia AND twins is rather low. I'm also yet to see a more direct source confirming this "confession" of Karin Magnussen.

This is completely pointless. Your original implied incredulity about Mengele conducting any experiments at all was refuted some time back.

Now you're reduced, and not for the first time, to nitpicking aimlessly at a subject you clearly never even thought about properly until a couple of days ago. You've been given enough links and leads in terms of publications that if you were genuinely interested in this subject, you could go away and read up on it properly. If you want absolute certainty, go find another subject to fuss over, because history clearly isn't for you.

 

[Natan]

Wikipedia is not a credible historical source to say the least, have you actually read the primary sources yourself Simon? or even some secondary sources drawing directly from the primary sources?

Have you been reading the thread from the start? When I pointed out on the wiki page the originals were destroyed, everyone was pretty pissed. They pointed out - like you - read the primary sources. Primary source being Wetzel's commentary. I looked for it, couldn't find it, but Dr. Terry was kind enough to provide a link. It turned out from such a primary source suspicions of creative reconstruction on wikipedia were justified.

 

[Natan]

This is completely pointless. Your original implied incredulity about Mengele conducting any experiments at all was refuted some time back.

I said he didn't conduct any experiments at all? Hmmm... I recall saying he didn't do any experiments at all on Mr. Bodner alright. Mr. Bodner seems to agree with that. <snip>

Edited by Loss Leader: 

Edited. Moderated thread.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Actually Hitler did not want to exterminate the Slavic peoples quite the same way he intended to literaryly exterminate the Jews down to the last child;he merely wanted to reduce the number by about two thirds by hunger and other means, and makes slaves of the rest.

Odd way of going about it.

So many survivors of all ages. Can someone explain how and why the German's
would be moving Jewish men, women and children from camp to camp to camp to camp to camp and supposedly sometimes even to camp to camp to camp to camp, 9 camps in all?

 

[Clayton Moore]

This error is the result of basic research incompetence on Mattogno's part, and explains why MGK as well as the deniers who read them, are so shockingly ill-informed about the evidence for the Holocaust.

What is truly nonsense is that mumbo jumbo.

Always pretending the nonsense is evidence of Germans intending to exterminate the Jewish people.

There were no gas chambers which makes the Holocaust a lie.

Let's hear evidence that there were gas chambers the killed millions of Jewish people.

Let's hear evidence of how gas chambers killed millions of Jewish people.

Let's hear the gas chamber facts.

Try it. Your evidence will be rent asunder.

 

[Multivac]

Except that the sources you gave seem to suggest "gypsy" children were used as a source of eyes, which makes more sense than twins (why use twins specifically).

So, are you saying that gypsy children can't be twins?

 

[Natan]

So, are you saying that gypsy children can't be twins?

I'm saying for that specific research topic no twins even seem needed.

 

[MaGZ]

Speeches plural. The two speeches in October 1943 were given to the SS-Gruppenfuehrer on the one hand, and the Party leadership on the other (Reichsleiter, Gauleiter, ministers). In June 1944 Himmler spoke to a number of Wehrmacht generals.

There are no attendance lists but there are enough statements from the time and subsequently to get an idea of who was there. The October 1943 speech to the civilian leadership is very controversial because Speer was addressed directly by Himmler in his speech

Himmler was not acting on his own, he cited Hitler as the source of the order to carry out the Final Solution. Hans Frank did the same thing in December 1942.

As for 'examples of the measures taken to implement the decision', try reading a history of the Holocaust....

I understand there is no documentation of a Hitler approval of the Holocaust. Also it makes no sense to bring civilians into the Holocaust decision.

 

[Clayton Moore]

http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2013/volume_5/number_1/the_case_for_auschwitz.php

Janda Weiss a 14 years old witness. In spite of his young age he was not sent to the gas chamber. He was assigned work as a kitchen helper and took food to the crematorium Sonderkommando.

After a year he was assigned to the crematorium Sonderkommando. He was one of many such witnesses who was spared the death that allegedly struck crematorium Sonderkommando on a regular basis.

Here is some of his nonsense.

http://inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2013/volume_5/number_1/the_case_for_auschwitz.php

There is, first of all, the story of elderly people being carted away from the “ramp” on a dump truck that took them straight to the burning trenches and tipped them into the fire alive. Leaving aside the question of whether it was possible to drive a heavy truck across the swampy ground of Birkenau without getting stuck, we reach a limit when we imagine this truck being carefully backed up to the edge of a trench blazing with fire and then dumping its uncooperative load. This can simply not be done in a matter of seconds and there is thus a serious risk of the truck catching fire or even exploding in the process. Any German soldier foolish enough to undertake such a highly risky and totally useless operation would certainly have been court-martialed for endangering government property, if not for outright sabotage.

There is also the question of what these trenches looked like: either the sides of the trench were banked, in which case the truck could not get close enough to the fire in such an operation, or if the banks were vertical, the tail end of the truck would extend into the flames and the edge of this make-shift trench would eventually crumble with disastrous results.

The other point where Weiss is talking nonsense is when he speaks about the lungs of the victims bursting from the gas, with a loud clamoring noise being heard three minutes after the gas had been fed into the chambers. He seems to imagine the lungs of the victims ballooning and eventually reaching the limits of the constraining power of the rib-cage. Sixty years on, the toxic effects of hydrocyanic acid should be clear to all concerned, and this statement alone should have convinced an intelligent person like van Pelt that the witness, at best, is reporting (false) hear-say but cannot himself be taken seriously.

 

[Border Reiver]

I understand there is no documentation of a Hitler approval of the Holocaust. Also it makes no sense to bring civilians into the Holocaust decision.

But it does make sense to involve the police and secret police (SS), as well as the Minister of Armaments and War Production.

 

[abaddon]

Odd way of going about it.

So many survivors of all ages. Can someone explain how and why the German's
would be moving Jewish men, women and children from camp to camp to camp to camp to camp and supposedly sometimes even to camp to camp to camp to camp, 9 camps in all?

Which 9 camps out of the thousands constructed are you referring to?

 

[Clayton Moore]

Another person miling the Holocaust turns up. Anyone seen anybody with an A7734 tattoo. Maybe he should ask A7713, Elie Weasel.

Tel Aviv, Israel (CNN) -- Menachem Bodner is a soft-spoken 73-year-old, who thinks carefully before he describes his first memory as a three-year old child.

"I remember my mother. What she was wearing. A green skirt with white flowers and a white blouse," he says in Hebrew. "On the left, there was a bed and my brother was sleeping. I remember I had a brother."

"I was in the camp. A man came in who was looking for his wife and daughter," he recalls. "I stood before him and asked if he would be my father. He picked me up in his hands and took me out of the camp."

The Holocaust lies never stop.

A 4 1/2 getting a tattoo? I thought they gassed children and old people who couldn't work?

 

[abaddon]

The Holocaust lies never stop.

A 4 1/2 getting a tattoo? I thought they gassed children and old people who couldn't work?

Why did you omit the fact that he and his brother were twins and were kept in the camp by Mengele for the purpose of experimentation?

 

[Natan]

Why did you omit the fact that he and his brother were twins and were kept in the camp by Mengele for the purpose of experimentation?

And why do you omit the part he doesn't recall ever being experimented upon?

 

[Nick Terry]

Odd way of going about it.

So many survivors of all ages. Can someone explain how and why the German's
would be moving Jewish men, women and children from camp to camp to camp to camp to camp and supposedly sometimes even to camp to camp to camp to camp, 9 camps in all?

This has been repeatedly explained on these threads.

The Nazis consistently spared a minority of Jews for slave labour (or other purposes like medical experiments) even while slaughtering millions. This was a principle laid down at the Wannsee Conference, and implemented throughout 1942 to 1944. Over the course of the war this resulted in at least a 16:1 ratio of killed to spared, counting those who were subjected to the Final Solution.

The Nazis, and Hitler, intended to wipe out every Jew eventually, but this intention (again expressed in the Wannsee protocol) was abandoned by the end of 1944, as they were losing the war, thus Himmler called a halt to the Final Solution and started trying to use the remaining Jews as bargaining chips. This did not stop lots more Jews dying before May 1945, but it did mean others stood a chance of surviving.

That is why the historical record notes the death of 5+ million Jews versus the survival of less than a quarter of a million Jewish KZ inmates.

The reason why some Jewish survivors were moved through 9 camps is very simple: they had been spared for forced labour, then they were moved around as needed, and usually moved several times after November 1944, when (a) the Final Solution stopped and (b) the Nazi empire was rapidly shrinking, so the Nazis tended to evacuate camps near the front and send the KZ prisoners to other camps, or on death marches.

The reasons why there are child survivors are also simple: the Nazis spared a small number of children (1500) for medical experiments regardless of age. Other children benefited from a lowering of working age to 10 in 1944, which was a direct result of the Nazis experiencing a labour shortage. This enabled some few 8-9 year olds to slip through the net which they would not have done in 1942 or 1943.

A few others slipped through because the Nazi regime was beginning to break down in 1944, and the entire system became quite simply, less systematic. Exceptions don't disprove a rule.

 

[abaddon]

And why do you omit the part he doesn't recall ever being experimented upon?

He was three liberated, how much do you suppose he might recall?

 

[Lenbrazil]

Poles are pretty much the same way, they point to the targeted liquidation of intelligentsia and leadership elites in 1939-40

Are you suggesting the Germans were responsible for the Katyn massacre?

The Katyn victims were overwhelmingly if not entirely from the police and military and were murdered over the course of about 1 month not 1 year.

 

[Nick Terry]

Are you suggesting the Germans were responsible for the Katyn massacre?

What a strange question. The only people who think otherwise are, funnily enough, bosom buddies with Holocaust deniers - Russian nationalist 'Katyn deniers'.

But you appear not to be aware of the Nazi liquidation of the Polish intelligentsia which began in 1939 and reached a crescendo at roughly the same time as Katyn, in spring 1940. This was the so-called AB-Aktion, although the name technically applies only to one part of a much larger series of mass killings.

Quite a few have speculated about a connection between the Nazi and Soviet actions - even though a direct connection is unlikely, the coincidence in timing is striking enough, as are the patterns of NKVD-Gestapo cooperation at this time.