General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[A'isha]

Are you suggesting the NS attitude toward the Slavic races was the same as the Jews?

The motivation for denying the existence of things like Generalplan Ost by holocaust deniers certainly springs from the same place as their denial of the holocaust itself.

 

[uke2se]

The motivation for denying the existence of things like Generalplan Ost by holocaust deniers certainly springs from the same place as their denial of the holocaust itself.

Well, I think it's an offshoot of their denial of the holocaust. I mean, they deny the mass murder of Jews because they hate Jews. They deny the other parts of the holocaust because not doing so would make their denial of the mass murder of Jews inconsistent.

Or possibly because they ascribe to the same dumb racial theories as the old Nazis did, I suppose.

At least that's my take on it.

 

[bignickel]

I love these kinds of threads; not because of anything the OP can come up with, but because of the amazingly detailed and informative posts correcting it.

 

[dudalb]

Actually Hitler did not want to exterminate the Slavic peoples quite the same way he intended to literaryly exterminate the Jews down to the last child;he merely wanted to reduce the number by about two thirds by hunger and other means, and makes slaves of the rest.

 

[TimCallahan]

Hitler’s planned extermination of the Slavic people

In a previous thread it was claimed Hitler planned to exterminate the Slavic people in the East. I am skeptical of this claim and would like to hear the arguments.

This site has a number of specific quotes from Adolph Hitler on the Slavic peoples. If he didn't intend to exterminate them, he certainly did intend to drive them out of many desirable territories and to enslave them.

 

[dudalb]

Fact is, a great many of the Hitler Huggers deep down 100% approve what Hitler and the Nazis did,and what they planned to do, but they know they can't say that in so many words so they defend the Nazis by denying the Nazis did what they did.
"The Holocaust never happened, but the Jews had it coming" is a good description of Hitler Hugger philosophy.

 

[dafydd]

Actually Hitler did not want to exterminate the Slavic peoples quite the same way he intended to literaryly exterminate the Jews down to the last child;he merely wanted to reduce the number by about two thirds by hunger and other means, and makes slaves of the rest.

That's alright then.

 

[Natan]

Can you justify these odd remarks? Except perhaps the last one, which has the merit of being evidently true.

Nothing odd about it. For example the first one, why argument about the Polish and the jews when neither are slavic people? This doesn't belong in the Holocaust thread for the very same reason. It belongs there according to some posters because it is moderated, difficult to post there and because frankly they realized the argument of Generalplan Ost somehow proving Hitler's plan for the extermination of slavic people has more holes than a sieve.

The motivation for denying the existence of things like Generalplan Ost by holocaust deniers certainly springs from the same place as their denial of the holocaust itself.

And where did I deny the existence of Generalplan Ost, oh shining beacon of truth?

Wetzel however proceeds on then-contemporary assumptions suggesting that 20 million Poles would be moved bodily to Siberia, where a population of this size would probably remain as an intact ethnicity and thus continue to be a danger. He is evidently torn between different logics here, logics which arose directly from the nature of the Nazi colonisation plan. The same thoughts are then expressed vis-a-vis Ukrainians (who were to be reduced by 65%) and Belorussians.

All sweet and nice and you are correct, but Poles are off-topic. Thread title?

Show me where I have ever discussed the GPO as a matter of 100% instantaneous extermination. I can't concede a strawman. I also don't care what the OP said, someone mentioned the GPO and I'm sharing the benefits of my understanding of this.

I didn't ask you to concede a strawman, instead I asked you to concede MaGZ's point since you seem to divert from extermination to "genocide" while the actual correct term would have been ethnic cleansing.

 

[Natan]

This site has a number of specific quotes from Adolph Hitler on the Slavic peoples. If he didn't intend to exterminate them, he certainly did intend to drive them out of many desirable territories and to enslave them.

I can see better now why Hitler is so hated. He reminds the English (blue part) and the Americans (red part) too much of their own erroneous ways.

The Russian space is our India! Like the English, we shall rule this empire with a handful of men. It would be a mistake to claim to educate the natives.. The Slav people are not destined to live a cleanly life.. It's better not to teach them to read. Even to give them a locomotive to drive would be a mistake.. We'll supply the Ukrainians with scarves, glass beads, and everything colonials like."​

 

[Natan]

Karin Magnussen admitted receiving eyes from Auschwitz.

I can not find her admitting to that in the link below, only an allegation of receiving eyes of "gypsy" children is made by a certain Hans Hesse in a book of his.

http://www.mpiwg-berlin.de/KWG/Ergebnisse/Ergebnisse12.pdf

 

[Belz...]

The motivation for denying the existence of things like Generalplan Ost by holocaust deniers certainly springs from the same place as their denial of the holocaust itself.

...which springs from the same place as the holocaust itself.

 

[Courier]

Hitler wanted to turn the Slavs into slaves, and kill the rest.

 

[Craig B]

Nothing odd about it. For example the first one, why argument about the Polish and the jews when neither are slavic people? ... the argument of Generalplan Ost somehow proving Hitler's plan for the extermination of slavic people has more holes than a sieve ... All sweet and nice and you are correct, but Poles are off-topic.

Please justify this in light of the general categorisation of the Polish people and their language.

Present-day Slavic people are classified into East Slavic (chiefly Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians), West Slavic (chiefly Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, and Wends, or Sorbs), and South Slavic (chiefly Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Slovenes, Macedonians, Montenegrins and Bulgarians).

Wiki on the Slavic peoples.

 

[Craig B]

The rule of the (legendary) Prince Piast in Great Poland began began a process of unification in the West Slavic region that would become modern Poland. Under the Piasts of the Polans tribe of Slavs, first a duchy and then a kingdom were formed. Mieszko Piast became the first documented ruler of Poland, when he accepted Christianity into the newly created state in 966. At this time, the Polish state encompassed territory similar to that of modern Poland, while Mieszko was also termed 'King of the Wends', the name for West Slavs.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/EasternPoland.htm

 

[A'isha]

And where did I deny the existence of Generalplan Ost, oh shining beacon of truth?.

In every post in this thread where you've questioned...well, pretty much everything written about it, and compared it to the classic denier canard implying that the gas chambers at Auschwitz didn't exist.

If you don't deny that Generalplan Ost existed at all, what is it that you think it contained? What is it that the Nazis actually planned for the non-German peoples of the East, according to you?

 

[EtienneSC]

I will have to take this up again at a later date. At present I will answer your direct question on the "resettlement" theory before i have to leave off. Hence:

The simple fact is that there is no credible evidence whatsoever for 'resettlement'. It is a pure fantasy. By contrast, there is enough forensic evidence from the Reinhard camps that from the 1940s, everyone other than deniers concluded they were extermination camps.

Moreover, the documents that exist for the occupied eastern territories flatly contradict any claimed resettlement to region after region. The best example is the Ostland, which is repeatedly alleged to have been a resettlement destination by Mattogno, Graf and Kues. The Ostland leadership discussed in mid-1943 that there were only 72,000 Jews left in three districts of the Reichskommissariat. The breakdowns conform to what is known from multiple other sources about the Riga, Minsk, Kaunas and Wilno ghettos, to name the obvious examples, as well as all of the smaller labour camps which existed in close proximity to the big ghetto centres. The number includes the few survivors of the 60,000 Reich Jews deported to the Ostland ghettos in 1941-2. It cross-references so well with so many sources that it can be taken as a proven fact that there were only 72,000 Jews left in the Ostland in mid-1943. (That number was of course reduced drastically further through to 1944, when the final survivors were either killed or transported to Stutthof, at a time when the Nazis had belatedly realised that Jewish labourers might be a good idea.)

This evidence utterly refutes any contention that there were extra Jews swirling around a major region of the occupied eastern territories. Do you agree - yes or no? Answer the question straight up without hedging.

No, with qualifications, because the evidence accessed may not be exhaustive. For example, you speak of "region after region", where "all regions" is required.

My thinking here is (a) the Korherr report figures for deportations up to 1943 are accurate; (b) the extermination camp interpretation is physically impossible; (c) no-one really believes it or they would have done commensurate forensic studies in the intervening 68 years. Hence the Jews must have been deported East, as the German documentation claims (indeed even the "damning" Goebbels diary entry says so).

As you say, this must have produced documentary evidence, as we are dealing with basically literate societies run by bureaucracies dealing with people with little or no means of livelihood. To establish some reasonable expectations, we might start by considering similar deportations.

For example, what records did the deportation of the Krajina Serbs in the 1990s produce, or the fleeing of Jews from Belgium and the Netherlands to France in 1940, or the expulsion of the Ugandan Asians to the UK in the 1970s? In the case of the Ugandan Asians, there were initial estimates of the numbers sent, but less track was kept thereafter as they merged into the general population and decisions on housing were devolved onto local authorities. In the French case, we find that that many Jews were not included in estimates of French Jewry after the war (so Rassinier, who noted that numbers were only of established congregations, but found information to identify the approximate numbers). These are three cases of deportation on state authority to another established state, but this is not the case here where an occupied territory is involved.

To take a partly similar example of a population movement, you could not calculate the number of illegal immigrants to the UK by looking at DSS figures, as immigrants would not qualify for benefits. Here again, there is a regular state authority in the receiving area and a probably large population movement. I agree the comparison is not exact, but the principle of not recording data outside externally given responsibilities is relevant.

It is also relevant that the receiving authorities in European Russia would be dealing with a large number of migrants arriving over a period of two years in the context of other population flows (people fleeing East to avoid the Germans to being sent East as labour in the Urals factories). Not having an anti-semitic agenda, they would have had no reason to identify arrivals as Jews.

But let's leap ahead to possible responses from the Gurus, who are unlikely to give up their fantasy so quickly, and possible speculations from you. There are only two possible hypotheses [my emphasis] which could be advanced to explain the presence of only 72,000 Jews in the Ostland in mid-1943 in a sensible manner.

Firstly, maybe there were hidden Jews under SS control in the Ostland, in something like a concentration camp network, who don't show up in the 72,000 figure. [...]

The second hypothesis is that the resettled Jews were then sent onwards into Army Groups North and/or Centre. [...]

You have not established that there are the only two possible hypotheses. Were there no residual local authorities in the occupied territories or amongst the deportees themselves?

[...] this army group transferred large numbers of Russian civilians out of its area, [my stress] [...]

An interesting reference here to "transfers of large numbers of Russian civilians" here!

By contrast, revisionists have yet to account for the whereabouts of well over 2 million Jews deported to the death camps. It is honestly not worth their wasting their time looking through all of the files to find nothing. But if they want to prove resettlement they will have to do just that, no ifs, no buts, that's what will be required, explaining the total absence of evidence for 'resettled Jews' in all of the surviving files - which incidentally overwhelmingly fell into Western hands. The documents itemising ration lists and labour deployment and the personnel files can be found in NARA in Washington DC or on Germany, even ordered on microfilm to be read wherever you want in the world on a microfilm reader.

No individual researcher could read "all the files" of a modern society, which it takes an army of bureaucrats to produce. I agree that the resettlement theory needs to be developed, but of course the "normal science" of academia rules it out from the start, so who has the motive and resources to investigate it?

 

[EtienneSC]

Why do you think it is a forgery? Do not audio samples of this speech exist?

Here is a sample:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yi9hT8ES2g
Himmler states that 'Ausrottung' (here translated 'extermination', but more literally 'eradication' or 'rooting out') is in the party program, which is not so in the sense of extermination, but is in the sense of emigration. The party program stated:
"7. We demand that the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.

8. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich."
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/25points.asp

 

[Natan]

Please justify this in light of the general categorisation of the Polish people and their language. Wiki on the Slavic peoples.

Fine. My mistake due to their border with Germany and from the Poles that I know which look closer to Germanic people. Genetically, there is probably overlap.

If you don't deny that Generalplan Ost existed at all, what is it that you think it contained?

I know what it didn't contain: the fate of the Russians.

What is it that the Nazis actually planned for the non-German peoples of the East, according to you?

According to me, not much good. To use manufactured or at the least manipulated evidence to support that hypothesis is however ridiculous.

 

[StankApe]

and lo the flying pasketti monster looked down upon the lake of fire, and yea he saw there in the deepest pit of hell the deniers of the holocaust and besmirchers of the dead, for their character was irredeemable and poopy.

 

[Craig B]

Fine. My mistake due to their border with Germany and from the Poles that I know which look closer to Germanic people. Genetically, there is probably overlap.

Genetically there is "probably" overlap between the Germans and the Poles, yes. The alternative is that there is no genetic overlap between the Germans and the Poles. This is weird discourse.