WTC Dust Study Feb 29, 2012 by Dr. James Millette

[LSSBB]

Sunstealer:


HMMMMMMMMM

Steven Jones, one of the authors of Harrit´s paper, actually states:


HMMMMMMMMMM



Someone is indeed being very dishonest, and making false statements, and it is true, it is impossible to have a rational discussion with this person...so everyone should just ignore him from on

They only had a single measurement in the paper. Where are the other measurements? They were not part of the 'peer review'. A single released measurement of a chip and a bunch of words does not present a study that can be analyzed for it's accuracy and repeatability.

 

[jtl]

Let´s hope Mohr will confirm soon whether or not Millette is going to publish the paper or not. "Call back in April" was the word. If he does not agree to submit it to a journal then I suspect he never will.

Harrit does not say that the signal for al in the iron spheres is for al-oxide, but
how many here would ignore such a result?

- I would call up my arrogant truther cousin to concede.

 

[Senenmut]

But according to Harrit's paper, every single red/gray chip is the same!

Do you see the problem yet?

what if they are the same in jones' samples. henryco found some that matched the XEDS spectra but did not react. as africanus put it: "henryco confirmed the composition of the chips and says that this composition is compatible with the nanothermite chips."

now that is a major wrench thrown into the millette study b/c he has to differentiate between the 2 different types.

set 1. jones chips that react to produce iron and silicon rich microspheres
set 2. henrycos chips where the "composition is compatible with the nanothermite chips" but did NOT react to produce iron and silicon rich microspheres.


now in comes millette with chips where the "composition is compatible with the nanothermite" but never attempted to ignite the chips to see if they were from set 1 or set 2.

DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM?

 

[Senenmut]

No, this is something the Truthers pretty much made up out of whole cloth to get around the fact that Millette's more detailed study completely and utterly rules out thermite.

millettes study (his chips) also rules out silicon and iron rich microspheres from forming from his chips

if you dont agree, tell us how these spheres will form in millettes chips.

 

[Senenmut]

He thus definitely contradicts what jtl, MM and/or Senemut assert, and also contradicts Jones.

jtl, MM, Senemut: Why do you keep making statements that imply that Harrit et al are liars? Or are you lying? Then please stop lying!

lying? about??

ETA:
Also, David Griscom, the referee of the Harrit paper, stated his understanding in his first reply to me that, the red-gray chips are so distinctictive they are all thermitic and not paint. I specifically asked:

and he specifically answered:

(where "see above" contains no qualification whatsoever)

I further asked "3. Follow-up to 2.: Do you feel that such a premise is valid?" and he said "Yes." (a totally unqualified "yes").

So you see, the top physicist who refereed the paper and contributed twelve pages of peer-review to it was very clearly and uncinditionally under the impression that all red-gray chips are essentially the same, that only the two criteria "magnetic" and "red/gray chip" were used to select them, that all of these are thermitic, none are paint.

So jtl, MM and Senemut apparently think that Griscom is wrong, and they are smarter than him.

whats wrong with that. maybe all the chips were the same in jones' samples. henryco showed how others have popped up on the circuit that do not react. millette needs to differentiate between the two. he needs to find out if the chips he has are similar to jones or henrycos.

 

[pgimeno]

If [Millette] did isolate 'chips of interest' by targeting those with relatively low readings (~10 ohms or less), and ignored those with relatively high readings (~100,000 ohms or more), he's not talking about it.

Conversely, if the Bentham paper authors did a resistivity test on each of the chips they tested, they haven't talked about it. They only mention one chip, the one they report results on, even if Harrit says they tested the resistivity of a random sample of them. One would wonder what the other resistivities they found were, but it seems plausible that if they found that to be typical of the tested chips, they would have said so instead of reporting only the result for a single chip. Sounds like cherry-picking to me.

As Dr. Jones has stated, the resistivity test described in he Bentham Paper significantly simplified filtering of the pile of magnetically-isolated chips.

That's a lie. He has not said that. He has said that Millette should have done it, which is very different, and you know that.


It's all STOP - Standard Truther Operating Procedure. We knew that they would invent something if Millette's conclusions didn't say what they wanted them to say. And just as the sun rises every morning, here it is.

 

[Spanx]

Let´s hope Mohr will confirm soon whether or not Millette is going to publish the paper or not. "Call back in April" was the word. If he does not agree to submit it to a journal then I suspect he never will.

Harrit does not say that the signal for al in the iron spheres is for al-oxide, but
how many here would ignore such a result?

- I would call up my arrogant truther cousin to concede.

Their you go again, hoping that someone will jump to your tune.

Just incase you haven't noticed, your leaders have not responded to Millette's work. It's only you and a few more faceless truthers making up BS. Ask your ginger truther cousin to put in a request to your leaders and demand a response.

Truthers have had a year to respond and the truther ring leaders have disappeared . Does that not tell you some thing jtl.

 

[Gamolon]

what if they are the same in jones' samples. henryco found some that matched the XEDS spectra but did not react. as africanus put it: "henryco confirmed the composition of the chips and says that this composition is compatible with the nanothermite chips."

now that is a major wrench thrown into the millette study b/c he has to differentiate between the 2 different types.

set 1. jones chips that react to produce iron and silicon rich microspheres
set 2. henrycos chips where the "composition is compatible with the nanothermite chips" but did NOT react to produce iron and silicon rich microspheres.


now in comes millette with chips where the "composition is compatible with the nanothermite" but never attempted to ignite the chips to see if they were from set 1 or set 2.

DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM?

*sigh*

That's the problem!

Harrit and his paper conclude that if ANYONE pulls ANY red/gray chips from the dust using a magnet, they should ALL produce the same results as Harrit and his group have shown in the paper no matter what test you run on them.

According to their paper, I should be able to extract red/gray chips from a WTC dust sample with a magnet and then replicate the same exact results from any test they performed in the paper.

The fact that Millette got different results proves their paper to be wrong.

To reiterate, Harrit's paper concludes that as long as anyone extracts chips from the WTC dust using their two criteria, having red/gray layers AND is attracted to a magnet, those chips WILL BE THERMITE. There AREN'T supposed to be different red/gray chips that are attracted to a magnet according to them.

 

[Gamolon]

millettes study (his chips) also rules out silicon and iron rich microspheres from forming from his chips

if you dont agree, tell us how these spheres will form in millettes chips.

There shouldn't be his chips, Harrit's chips, or any other chips if they followed the isolation criteria on page 9 of the Bentham paper.

 

[Sunstealer]

There shouldn't be his chips, Harrit's chips, or any other chips if they followed the isolation criteria on page 9 of the Bentham paper.

Henryco was actually sent the chips by iirc Jones so Henryco's chips had to have already been isolated. Or are the truthers here going to claim that Jones was incompetent and sent him random red/gray chips? To claim that Henryco had different chips is ludicrous because Jones etc supplied them!

When Henryco said the chips weren't thermite the truthers speculated that the package had been intercepted and the chips switched! They won't accept any conclusion except thermite.

Why didn't Jones or Basile supply Millette with red/gray chips? That way the truthers wouldn't have the get out of saying Millette has the wrong material. It's classic pseudo-science - claim something, refuse to provide the samples and then claim the other researcher doesn't have the same material.

It's Harrit/Jones/Farrer/Basile that are being dishonest and unprofessional. Why are they desperately holding onto the evidence? Could it be they know they are full of crap and frauds? Yep, definitely.

Truthers are going after the wrong man, they should be hammering the authors to provide samples. All this nonsense about having wrong chips is simply misdirection.

If they don't want to be taken as frauds they should release their isolated chips for independent analysis. But they won't because they know they'll be exposed as frauds.

 

[Gamolon]

As the chief researcher, Dr. Millette should have welcomed the additional chip-filtering information [Resistivity Test] described in the 2009 Bentham Paper that Chris Mohr asked him to duplicate.

Nope. The resisitivty test was an afterthought. They randomly selected chips from their isolated pile, per their criteria on page 9, and used the results to stereotype the ENTIRE pile. They didn't use resistivity as a filtering method themselves. That's why they won't answer a simple question about it. Either way they answer the question, it invalidates thier paper and they KNOW it.

The issue is that after being magnetically isolated, you still end up with a lot of chips.

Right. Harrit and his group then concluded that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THOSE CHIPS WAS THERMITE based on the test rseults of a few chips.

As Dr. Jones has stated, the resistivity test described in he Bentham Paper significantly simplified filtering of the pile of magnetically-isolated chips.

That's a lie. SHow us the exact quote.

It speeds up the 'chips-of-interest' discovery process.

Wrong on so many levels. There was no "chips-of-interest" discovery process other than using the red/gray visual and being attracted by magnet. You're twisting things like Jones trying to worm your way out of the fact that they concluded all chips extracted by the isolation criteria mentioned above (and on page 9) were ALL thermite. Once again, here is an exact quote from their paper. I enlarged, bolded, and colrered the important text so you couldn't miss it. You can't interpret that to mean anything else.

RESULTS

1. Characterization of the Red/Gray Chips

Red/gray chips were found in all of the dust samples collected. An analysis of the chips was performed to assess the
similarity of the chips and to determine the chemistry and
materials that make up the chips. Fig. (2) displays photomicrographs of red/gray chips from each of the four WTC dust
samples. Note the scale marker in each image as they were
acquired at different magnifications. At approximately
2.5 mm in length, the chip in Fig. (2a) was one of the larger
chips collected. The mass of this chip was approximately 0.7
mg. All of the chips used in the study had a gray layer and a
red layer and were attracted by a magnet. The inset image in
Fig. (2d) shows the chip in cross section, which reveals the
gray layer. The gray layer is also partially visible in Fig.
(2b). Similarities between the samples are already evident
from these photographs.

 

[Miragememories]

"Henryco was actually sent the chips by iirc Jones so Henryco's chips had to have already been isolated."

"... The flakes that Dr. Henry-Coannier received are only single-sided, just red, and they are wholly consistent with paint...."

I think we can discount Henry's limited contribution to this discussion.

MM

 

[chrismohr]

Henryco was actually sent the chips by iirc Jones so Henryco's chips had to have already been isolated. Or are the truthers here going to claim that Jones was incompetent and sent him random red/gray chips? To claim that Henryco had different chips is ludicrous because Jones etc supplied them!

When Henryco said the chips weren't thermite the truthers speculated that the package had been intercepted and the chips switched! They won't accept any conclusion except thermite.

Why didn't Jones or Basile supply Millette with red/gray chips? That way the truthers wouldn't have the get out of saying Millette has the wrong material. It's classic pseudo-science - claim something, refuse to provide the samples and then claim the other researcher doesn't have the same material.

It's Harrit/Jones/Farrer/Basile that are being dishonest and unprofessional. Why are they desperately holding onto the evidence? Could it be they know they are full of crap and frauds? Yep, definitely.

Truthers are going after the wrong man, they should be hammering the authors to provide samples. All this nonsense about having wrong chips is simply misdirection.

If they don't want to be taken as frauds they should release their isolated chips for independent analysis. But they won't because they know they'll be exposed as frauds.

Sunstealer claims that Henryco said his chips from Jones were not thermitic. On this same page, Senenmut quotes Henryco as saying, the "composition is compatible with the nanothermite chips" but his chips did NOT react to produce iron and silicon rich microspheres. I need to get up to speed on the henryco story, which I am not well versed in. Did he get his chips from Jones? Which experiments did he perform on the chips, and what did he conclude about them?

 

[DGM]

I think we can discount Henry's limited contribution to this discussion.

MM

They are a bit inconvenient, huh? Strange, Jones would sandbag him with the wrong chips.

 

[Sunstealer]

I think we can discount Henry's limited contribution to this discussion.

MM

Nope you are wrong as usual. Henryco actually had a number of chips, some of which where red/gray chips and some where what he called red/red chips.

Here is the proof - a picture of a red/gray chip from (rouge is French for red, sombre is French for dark)

And a comparison with Harrit:

Wow they are they same.

MM - Are you going to have the good grace to acknowledge the fact that Henryco analysed red/gray chips sourced from Jones/Harrit?

 

[Sunstealer]

Sunstealer claims that Henryco said his chips from Jones were not thermitic. On this same page, Senenmut quotes Henryco as saying, the "composition is compatible with the nanothermite chips" but his chips did NOT react to produce iron and silicon rich microspheres. I need to get up to speed on the henryco story, which I am not well versed in. Did he get his chips from Jones? Which experiments did he perform on the chips, and what did he conclude about them?

Unfortunately Henryco's original analysis is no longer on his website but there are contact details.

http://www.darksideofgravity.com/indexGB.htm

I'm not sure if I kept his PDF of the analysis - I might have some pics somewhere.

 

[Sunstealer]

I've found the web PDFs for both Henryco's studies on dust and red/gray and red/red chips.

dust + red/gray http://www.darksideofgravity.com/marseille_gb.pdf
red/red http://www.darksideofgravity.com/redreds.pdf

 

[DGM]

I've found the web PDFs for both Henryco's studies on dust and red/gray and red/red chips.

dust + red/gray http://www.darksideofgravity.com/marseille_gb.pdf
red/red http://www.darksideofgravity.com/redreds.pdf

How would one do this?

2) Less likely: Red chips are from nanothermite that were deactivated in all my samples.

I'm not a chemist but, I do know that "thermite" (any flavor) is a chemical compound. If the components are there.............well.

 

[Oystein]

...
The fact that Millette got different results proves their paper to be wrong.
...

At the risk of giving jtl and MM something to pull out of context and dishonestly misrepresent: Millette didn't get different result - he got essentially the same results on a couple of different kinds of red-gray chips as Harrit et al did. Both data sets clearly refute the spurious "thermite" conclusion. Millette just got additional data from competent methods that positively identify some chips (type "a-d") as an epoxy-based paint with hematite and kaolin pigments, whereas Harrit's data is only good enough to identify the two pigments, but not the matrix, and that data otherwise just negatively proves it's all not thermite.

 

[Miragememories]

Nope you are wrong as usual. Henryco actually had a number of chips, some of which where red/gray chips and some where what he called red/red chips.

Here is the proof - a picture of a red/gray chip from (rouge is French for red, sombre is French for dark)

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=181&pictureid=928[/qimg]

And a comparison with Harrit:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=181&pictureid=861[/qimg]

Wow they are they same.

MM - Are you going to have the good grace to acknowledge the fact that Henryco analysed red/gray chips sourced from Jones/Harrit?

I was quoting R.Mackey the resident NASA scientist.

To the best of my knowledge Henry had to work with unsorted WTC dust and not pre-selected chips.

MM