Moderated Thermite: Was it there or not?

[TheDaver]

Thermite is a mixture of iron oxide and aluminium. Steven Jones has found evidence that iron, aluminium and oxygen were present in dust from the WTC. Since the building was made of iron and aluminium and surrounded by oxygen, Jones's claim that these can only be from thermite is, not to put too fine a point on it, a bit shaky. Since thermite can't be used to demolish buildings, of course, it's all about as relevant as whether Limburger cheese was present in the Twin Towers.

There are several threads on all this. Searching on "Niels Harrit", "Steven Jones" and "nano-thermite" may be a good start.

Dave

I like to put it this way:

When you find water in your bathroom sink, the rational explanation is that somebody was running the tap, not that they were burning hydrogen.

 

[DGM]

I like to put it this way:

When you find water in your bathroom sink, the rational explanation is that somebody was running the tap, not that they were burning hydrogen.

Yeah but, Who opened the faucet? Who plugged the drain? Was this person some how connected somehow to someone that knows someone that could be connected to the NWO? Your not thinking things though enough.

 

[Myriad]

Yeah but, Who opened the faucet? Who plugged the drain? Was this person some how connected somehow to someone that knows someone that could be connected to the NWO? Your not thinking things though enough.

We already know plumbing is a carefully planned interconnected web that reaches into all our homes, even into our very kitchens and bathrooms. It starts at the very top and if you follow it long enough, it always leads right to the sewer.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[ImANiceGuy]

well, it seems the duhbunkers can't get their stories straight either...

(fair moniker for any of you using the term Twoofer;basically the same person, just blind to opposing information)


...but on JREF any post will get a pass if it serves to shoot down a "conspiracy theory".

Is Jones' thermite..............................?

A) A natural product from the collapse and ensuing fires

Thermite is a mixture of iron oxide and aluminium. Steven Jones has found evidence that iron, aluminium and oxygen were present in dust from the WTC. Since the building was made of iron and aluminium and surrounded by oxygen, Jones's claim that these can only be from thermite is, not to put too fine a point on it, a bit shaky.

B) Unknown

The ED of thermite can be calculated once you know the ingredients. Whatever those chips are, many produce too much energy. What are they? I don't know. Nobody does.

C) A fabrication of the profiteer; Professor Steven Jones

Jones made up thermite on 9.16.05

D) Kaolinite

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4607894&postcount=1694

(this is a link to the excellent Sunstealer post; notice how he manages not to include any biases)

Why do you JREF members log in, day in and day out? Is it not to scientifically disseminate 9/11 myths and CT's? It appears to readers that these days you're more interested in debasing. Why don't you hold all members, Twoofers and Duhbunkers alike, to the same standards so that factual information regarding various common 9/11 topics can be provided to your readers.(of which there are many more than posters)

 

[beachnut]

well, it seems the duhbunkers can't get their stories straight either...
....

The liar Jones can't get his story straight. You support liars with what; nothing; you offer zero evidence and post hearsay, lies, and failed opinions based on delusions. You failed to post one fact. Failure.

Proof Jones is a liar. He says this was done by thermite.

It is a clean up cut made after 911.

Here is your research effort in a photo.

You bring support in the form of a failed post, weak support for lies; next time try evidence.

Why did Jones lie?

 

[The Big Dog]

Why do you JREF members log in, day in and day out? Is it not to scientifically disseminate 9/11 myths and CT's? It appears to readers that these days you're more interested in debasing. Why don't you hold all members, Twoofers and Duhbunkers alike, to the same standards so that factual information regarding various common 9/11 topics can be provided to your readers.(of which there are many more than posters)

So we can remind anyone who does not know that Truthers are dopes that Jones claims he found "super thermite" which is thermite that does not have the right chemical characteristics of thermite, and which would lead everyone else on earth to conclude that it is not thermite.

Except Jones and his merry band of pranksters.

 

[dudalb]

Why do you JREF 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists members log in, day in and day out? Is it not to scientifically disseminate 9/11 myths and CT's? It appears to readers that these days you're more interested in debasing. Why don't you hold all members, Twoofers and Duhbunkers alike, to the same standards so that factual information regarding various common 9/11 topics can be provided to your readers.(of which there are many more than posters)

Fixed that for you.

 

[ImANiceGuy]

Beachnut, yet another useless post completely off topic. You seem to have a low opinion of me despite not knowing any of my beliefs. What do the pictures of the cut column have to do with a JREF consensus on Jones' find. Why do the moderators allow you to insult other 'moderate' users, and de-rail members who attempt to contribute legitimate information in threads?

16.5, The only thing you remind someone sitting on the Nanothermite fence, is that even amongst the premier debunking site, James Randi Educational Foundation Forum, a clear consensus cannot be reached as to what Jones discovered. So tell me then, what is your answer to my multiple choice question? An additional choice, option E)none of the above, is acceptable.

Anyone? Bueller?

 

[DavidJames]

You seem to have a low opinion of me despite not knowing any of my beliefs.

You've been here since April. Your beliefs, despite your disingenuous and cowardly attempt to portray yourself differently, are pathetically obvious.

So tell me then, what is your answer to my multiple choice question? An additional choice, option E)none of the above, is acceptable.

Anyone? Bueller?

Sure, some here will speculate on it's origins, but It really doesn't matter what people here think. The problem with CTists (like you) is you know you have no evidence so you try to spin the burden of proof.

The burden is on you (CTists) to provide the proof.

Let me know when you have any.

 

[beachnut]

Beachnut, yet another useless post completely off topic. You seem to have a low opinion of me despite not knowing any of my beliefs. What do the pictures of the cut column have to do with a JREF consensus on Jones' find. Why do the moderators allow you to insult other 'moderate' users, and de-rail members who attempt to contribute legitimate information in threads?

16.5, The only thing you remind someone sitting on the Nanothermite fence, is that even amongst the premier debunking site, James Randi Educational Foundation Forum, a clear consensus cannot be reached as to what Jones discovered. So tell me then, what is your answer to my multiple choice question? An additional choice, option E)none of the above, is acceptable.

Anyone? Bueller?

does this mean you know Jones lied about the clean up cuts?

The answer is Jones made up thermite and iron rust and Al in his dust does not mean he has thermite except for those who are not able to think for themselves.

You have zero useful information on 911. You posted failed opinions based on your own delusions about 911. Jones found some iron rust and Al. He says it is thermite and he implies that it proves thermite was used to bring down the WTC; a lie. No matter what you do you can't leap from Jones finding iron rust and Al in dust blocks away from the WTC to saying thermite was used to destroy the WTC. The fact is there is zero evidence of thermite product (like a big pile of iron) at the WTC site during clean up. Thousands of photos, no thermite evidence. Thousands of trained firemen at ground zero found no piles of thermite product. Thousands of pieces of steel examined and found to be thermite free.

Present your massive pile of evidence you lost or your dog ate because your failed opinion post is void of substance save your opinion. I am waiting for you to post evidence. You posted failed opinions.

Present your support for Jones saying the thermite was in the ceiling tiles. Do you have anything more than failed opinions? Do you realize how crazy Jones' ideas on 911 are? Do you understand he made up the thermite scenario 4 years after 911 with hearsay, and false information and now has moved to sprayed on super-nano-thermite? You failed to present your evidence; why?


BTW: jones made up thermite is the answer! Comprehension skills in your cult which spews lies need to be worked on.

I answered your question years ago and Jones proves he made it up in his first paper. Did you see his first paper/letter where he makes up from scratch the delusional thermite story? He is a fraud who keeps making up bigger lies to cover his failure to be a good anti-war activist or some other failure. He was fired for his lunacy.

Jones discovered early in his fraud there are those who can’t comprehend his lies loosely veiled in a soft personable fashion of super-nano-intellectualism, who suspects a PhD in physics of poppycock (BS junk ideas) when he says repeats the commons sense sounding “broke the laws of momentum” or had to be a high temperature thermite reaction. Geewhiz not one of his believers is able to define a mol or do basic chemistry or physics. Jones discovered he could say stuff that sounded official about 911 and fool the masses of wannabe followers of nut case conspiracy theories and never be suspected of being a fraud, dolt and terrorist apologist on 911 issues.

 

[ImANiceGuy]

Beachnut, once again you missed my point. You lack basic reading comprehension; it's no wonder you are unable to decipher the context and content of my posts. Additionally, you draw conclusions from non existing premises. I never suggested thermite was used to bring down the WTC.

I simply provided a multiple choice question that reflects the 4 possible explanations given in this thread as to the nature of Jones' discovery. If Beachnut stands by his answer, then the material tested by Jones was iron rust and aluminum; Is this not worthy of debunking? If you called it an "inter-member fact-check clarification" instead, would it then be worth your time to set Beachnut straight?

Herein lies the problem, no consensus has ever been reached, so no one can be set straight.

Is , "D) Kaolinite", in the lead?

And just to be very clear, I have never acted with a hidden agenda nor have I been disengenuous. Although I do not feel as though I owe his accusations any consideration, I would like to publicly apologize to DavidJames if I offended him in any way. I would never intend to be anything but genuine, respectful, and clear. I have not retreated from anyone's questions.

A good defense is a strong offense when the hive is disturbed, as demonstrated. I wanted only to point out that when a topic of conspiracy is being discussed, it is important for everyone involved, whether "friend" or "enemy" to be working with facts, not conjecture.

So does anyone have an answer to the original multiple choice?

 

[R.Mackey]

I simply provided a multiple choice question that reflects the 4 possible explanations given in this thread as to the nature of Jones' discovery. [...]

Herein lies the problem, no consensus has ever been reached, so no one can be set straight.

Is , "D) Kaolinite", in the lead?

Well, actually, beachnut's answer was correct. What you're attempting to do is set up a False Choice Fallacy.

You see, at various times, Dr. Jones has claimed to have found at least four different types of thermite, either from reactions after the fact or from different bits and types of debris. His findings are in no way self-consistent. Therefore, there is no single explanation that accounts for them all.

Even his "nanothermite" changes radically. In the paper in The Environmentalist, he postulates it was there on the basis of 1,3-DPP outgassing, which in some weird universe where thermite burns at low temperature is indicative of the binder material. But in his latest Bentham paper, he dismisses any such organics as "contaminants."

You may also recall him waffling between "thermite," "thermite with added sulfur," and "thermate." Just different brands of double-talk depending on the latest scam he's trying to pull. No consistency. I haven't heard anyone bring up "thermate" in about a year, even though once it was all the rage in the conspiracy-addled set.

Heck, even if we restrict ourselves to one paper, his findings aren't even self-consistent. You'll note in his latest, for instance, that the energy content measurements vary by about a factor of eight from sample to sample, and that the ones on the high end are about double that of 100% pure, stoichiometrically ideal thermite.

Bottom line is, anything that looks the least bit odd to him, he will brand as thermite or some related substance. You cannot find a single explanation for all of his various claims like you demand -- not even with thermite. Dr. Jones has provided no single explanation either, not even a wrong one.

The only correct, single answer that covers everything is choice E), or "Dr. Jones doesn't have the foggiest idea what he's talking about."

 

[beachnut]

Beachnut, once again you missed my point. You lack basic reading comprehension; ...

I answered the question and have a reading comprehension problem. At least I am not supporting the nut case ideas of Jones.
I agree! I read something quickly and see right through the veil of BS; that is a reading comprehension problem, I skip right to the heart of Jones' problem; he has an insane idea he made up 4 years after 911. I figured this out after scanning his first delusional thermite paper years ago in seconds. I was trained by having a brother who can spew more BS in seconds than Jones can dig up from the pit of ignorance in years.

You on the other hand are an expert at seeing I lack basic (basic is such a basic thing) reading comprehension but no clue why I can see Jones is a liar and you can't. What do you lack; can the wizard help you?

I am proud to be a LBRC challenged kid; looks like the LBRC is a trait that enables me to see liars on 911 issues quickly and without all the cool prose needed to fool gullible people like you into believing me. I think it is cool if you remain in ignorance on 911 issues for as long as you want. As an expert at diagnosing LBRC you must be proud.

Was your post a veiled attack? If I was not LBRC I would be able to know.

The point is it does not matter what Jones says he has; there is no evidence of thermite being used on the WTC complex. Period.

You have no ample evidence on this topic! You have wasted your time becoming an expert at LBRC identification which you do infinitely better than your 911 research but it is a failed effort also. Is this called projecting or something?

 

[ImANiceGuy]

Macky, option E) absolves me of a false dichotomy. Also, you are too proud to stick up for Beachnut, he's below you. Speak to those of us who appreciate the plain facts explained simply, with limited editorial.

So what the heck could he have found that emits twice the energy content of stoichiometrically ideal thermite in the dust of the largest building collapse in human history? Nanothermite?(Joke!)

I'm not trying to shift the burden of proof, because I do not bear the burden, and neither do you. I do not represent any _____truth groups(911,AE,P,etc), nor do you and your respective groups.(GOP probably. Joke!)

I'm just curious as to what his samples could be, because in all my 9/11 research, I have yet to find a substantiated rebuttal.

Always keeping in mind of course, that in order for Dr.Jones to have found any chips in the WTC dust, he had to first be searching through WTC dust....

 

[Arus808]

Red paint.. simple . Red paint was used to paint the steel frames of the towers before the aluminum, concrete and glass were used to cover them.

Care to move on? Since Jones has never followed any modicum of scientific testing on his samples, he conveniently ignores the simple fact that his RED chips came from is simply RED freaking paint.

 

[R.Mackey]

Macky, option E) absolves me of a false dichotomy. Also, you are too proud to stick up for Beachnut, he's below you. Speak to those of us who appreciate the plain facts explained simply, with limited editorial.

So what the heck could he have found that emits twice the energy content of stoichiometrically ideal thermite in the dust of the largest building collapse in human history? Nanothermite?(Joke!)

I'm not trying to shift the burden of proof, because I do not bear the burden, and neither do you. I do not represent any _____truth groups(911,AE,P,etc), nor do you and your respective groups.(GOP probably. Joke!)

I'm just curious as to what his samples could be, because in all my 9/11 research, I have yet to find a substantiated rebuttal.

But you didn't present E) as an option.


You haven't looked very hard. There are something like 100 pages of discussion on this topic.

It's paint. Dr. Greening hypothesizes -- and I agree with him -- that the "bi-layered" type is still adherent to a rusted and/or spalled bit of steel; that's what the grey layer is. The flakes that Dr. Henry-Coannier received are only single-sided, just red, and they are wholly consistent with paint.

This hypothesis matches every single property that Dr. Jones measured: EDX spectrum, appearance under electron microscopy, energy content and its variability, ignition temperature, magnetism, and presence in dust found in New York City, whether or not specficially from the World Trade Center. Every single one of those properties is also inconsistent with any grade of thermite.

QED.

 

[TruthersLie]

Is Jones' thermite..............................?

A) A natural product from the collapse and ensuing fires

B) Unknown

C) A fabrication of the profiteer; Professor Steven Jones

D) Kaolinite

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4607894&postcount=1694

(this is a link to the excellent Sunstealer post; notice how he manages not to include any biases)

Why do you JREF members log in, day in and day out? Is it not to scientifically disseminate 9/11 myths and CT's? It appears to readers that these days you're more interested in debasing. Why don't you hold all members, Twoofers and Duhbunkers alike, to the same standards so that factual information regarding various common 9/11 topics can be provided to your readers.(of which there are many more than posters)

To back up the answer Ryan Mackey gave you.

S Jones and pals have been trying to pass off thermite, thermate and now super duper nanothermite.

Since each of these claims have been made based on different and contradictory evidence, there is NOT ONE SINGLE answer to the question of what "it" is.

so we have aluminum and iron oxide (rust) which was the original THERMITE claim.
Then we have the high sulfur from the gypsum and drywall plus the iron oxide and aluminu hence the claim of THERMATE
and now we have the super duper (it will clean your room, do the dishes, and be EXACTLY what you want) nanothermite which is Paint as sunstealer so deftly showed.

It is rather amusing that you go after beachnut for posting a rather succient overview which is pretty much the same for all 3 claims... it is BS, w/no proof and is peddled to scientifically challenged individuals who can't see through the obvious and blatant crap science.

I'm sorry that you seem to have missed the main point of beachnuts reply... I got it, and so did most of the other folks. It was a rather straight and hard reply to a CT/911 truther.

ETA: so therefore all 4 choices are correct depending on which claim you are discussing. Since it was a general "was thermite found" question, then all of those answers are valid. And including answer E from Ryan Mackey.

 

[TruthersLie]

Beachnut, yet another useless post completely off topic. You seem to have a low opinion of me despite not knowing any of my beliefs. What do the pictures of the cut column have to do with a JREF consensus on Jones' find. Why do the moderators allow you to insult other 'moderate' users, and de-rail members who attempt to contribute legitimate information in threads?

16.5, The only thing you remind someone sitting on the Nanothermite fence, is that even amongst the premier debunking site, James Randi Educational Foundation Forum, a clear consensus cannot be reached as to what Jones discovered. So tell me then, what is your answer to my multiple choice question? An additional choice, option E)none of the above, is acceptable.

Anyone? Bueller?

Or we can just see where beachnut went after you... you are a truther. very simple. You post in insult to start with duhbunkers. Right there you will not recieve a "warm" welcome, and from your posting history you have asked already debunked questions, and refused the answers given. You have tried to prop up people like waterboy (known liar) kevin ryan and the "i'm just asking questions" is a bs line that no one buys...

'
ETA. then you shift to the "nanothermite" claim which is NOT what you were discussing previously. You were all over the board and the people you quoted were discussing SEVERAL DIFFERENT claims made by jones. Why do you conflate them? Do you not understand that each of those quotes is about a DIFFERENT thermite related Jones claim?

As for the direct nanothermite claims, sunstealer has provided some of the best and most indepth analysis (actual real analysis, unlike what S Jones and pals did)

 

[Dave Rogers]

So what the heck could he have found that emits twice the energy content of stoichiometrically ideal thermite in the dust of the largest building collapse in human history?

Just about anything combustible in air will have something like ten times the energy content of thermite. Thermite's energy content is low because it contains its own oxygen source chemically bound (very strongly) to iron atoms, rather than using elemental oxygen from ambient air. Paper, wood, aviation fuel and, yes, paint chips, would all be expected to yield very much more energy of combustion than the same mass of thermite. As mysteries go, this is one of the least mysterious imaginable.

Dave

 

[TjW]

We already know plumbing is a carefully planned interconnected web that reaches into all our homes, even into our very kitchens and bathrooms. It starts at the very top and if you follow it long enough, it always leads right to the sewer.

Respectfully,
Myriad

And it's been implicated in the government distribution of DHMO -- dihydrogen monoxide. Virtually every water system in the U.S. shows traces of this dangerous substance!