Cooking?

[pakeha]

Kumar, why not use logical thinking on a hypothetical situation?
I'll be interested in seeing your source for the 70% claim.
And its context.

 

[Kumar]

Wrong. Placebos cannot heal, by definition. Maybe you mean that the placebo effect is measurable during the treatment of 70% of disorders. Maybe you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Yeah, that must be it.

Are we not equipied with self healing defence mechanism? Whether placebo awaken it? Reward expectation mechanism is related to placebo, which can suggest some tool is required to awaken self healing defence system or immune system.

 

[laca]

Are we not equipied with self healing defence mechanism?

Yes, to some extent.

Whether placebo awaken it?

No.

Reward expectation mechanism is related to placebo, which can suggest some tool is required to awaken self healing defence system or immune system.

Hell no.

 

[Kumar]

On the second day,randomly assigned to one of four groups, during which they were told they had either a 25-percent, 50-percent, 75-percent or 100-percent chance of receiving active medication before the third scan; however, all patients were given placebo.

Patients who were told they had a 75-percent chance of receiving active medication demonstrated a significant release of dopamine in response to the placebo, whereas those in the other groups did not.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/08/100802165412.htm

Whatever can stimulate it, why can'y be taken as a medication?

 

[laca]

Whatever can stimulate it, why can'y be taken as a medication?

Because it's not. It's not medication and it's not ethical. Real medication has the same placebo effect too, you know? Quack medicine does not hold the monopoly on the placebo effect.

 

[Mojo]

Just asking: Someone previously told that even about 70% disorders can be healed by placebo effect.

What they probably told you is that 70% of disorders will get better without treatment. Things like colds, temporary headaches, minor injuries.

The placebo effect probably doesn't do much beyond altering the patient's perception of the disorder.

See, for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9449934
Or: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200105243442106

 

[Mojo]

Are we not equipied with self healing defence mechanism?

Yes.

Whether placebo awaken it?

No.

It happens whether or not a placebo is administered.

 

[Mojo]

I think the confusion arises because a placebo control controls for much more than just the placebo effect. It also controls for the natural history of the disease, spontaneous remission, and the effects of other extraneous factors.

If 70% of patients get better after being given a placebo, that does not mean that the placebo effect cures 70% of patients.

 

[Mojo]

I'll be interested in seeing your source for the 70% claim.
And its context.

Perhaps it is this: http://dcscience.net/spence-jacm-05.pdf

Results: A total of 6544 consecutive follow-up patients were given outcome scores. Of the patients 70.7% (n  4627) reported positive health changes...

 

[Kumar]

Perhaps it is this: http://dcscience.net/spence-jacm-05.pdf

Good study thanks. I feel, now onwards you can acknowledge that homeopathy is nothing. It can still be better if one can be healed by self defence mechanism or by stimulated/awakened immune system. Than stimulating agent should serve a purpose of healing agent--whatever type that may be.

 

[laca]

Good study thanks. I feel, now onwards you can acknowledge that homeopathy is nothing. It can still be better if one can be healed by self defence mechanism or by stimulated/awakened immune system. Than stimulating agent should serve a purpose of healing agent--whatever type that may be.

 

[Kumar]

What they probably told you is that 70% of disorders will get better without treatment. Things like colds, temporary headaches, minor injuries.

The placebo effect probably doesn't do much beyond altering the patient's perception of the disorder.

See, for example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9449934
Or: http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200105243442106

How conventional system interfere in this natural healing?

 

[Kumar]

Because it's not. It's not medication and it's not ethical. Real medication has the same placebo effect too, you know? Quack medicine does not hold the monopoly on the placebo effect.

Then, who know what is treating what? Side effects can show more apparent affects.

 

[Mojo]

It can still be better if one can be healed by self defence mechanism or by stimulated/awakened immune system.

Done. It's called vaccination.

Than stimulating agent should serve a purpose of healing agent--whatever type that may be.

If you can't identify these "stimulating agents" this is no more than a pipe dream.

 

[Mojo]

How conventional system interfere in this natural healing?

As far as I'm aware it doesn't. Do you have any evidence that conventional medicine interferes with this natural healing?

 

[Kumar]

I think the confusion arises because a placebo control controls for much more than just the placebo effect. It also controls for the natural history of the disease, spontaneous remission, and the effects of other extraneous factors.

If 70% of patients get better after being given a placebo, that does not mean that the placebo effect cures 70% of patients.

I think that most conventional medicines just treat but not cure.

 

[Mojo]

Then, who know what is treating what?

People who can understand the results of controlled trials.

 

[Mojo]

I think that most conventional medicines just treat but not cure.

It's better than doing neither, isn't it?

 

[Kumar]

Done. It's called vaccination.




If you can't identify these "stimulating agents" this is no more than a pipe dream.

Whatever it may, but still it help to heal and that too without odd effects. So medication.

 

[pakeha]

You people owe me a new keyboard.
There I was, quietly sipping red tea, when I unsuspectingly clicked on mojo's link.
And then read the following posts.