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Janadele said:
Akhenaten said:
It's actually nothing more than the result of a realisation that the original thread failed dismally in its intent to preach the beliefs of the cult of LDS.
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:confused: what thread :confused: once again you have misunderstood.
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The thread you referred to here:

Janadele said:
That is your choice Astreja, and you can also choose not to visit this thread.

This thread evolved from another thread in which off topic questions regarding the Teachings and Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were being asked. The purpose of this thread is to answer those questions, if appropriate, and to clear up misunderstandings and misconceptions for those who are interested in the truth.
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Please try to keep up.
 
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Janadele said:
Akhenaten, I do not believe you are "seeking evidence"... to the contrary in fact. The list of fulfilled prophecies is innumerable. But I have no intention of wasting my time researching them for you. You can find them easily enough, if you wish to do so.
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Janadele said:
I do not consider there is ANY evidence that the Book of Abraham is not the word of God, nor could there be.

The "mindless repeating" is from those who continually mock and insult Holy Scripture of which they have no knowledge nor understanding.
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I wonder what 'Hat-O-Scope' Smith would make of this hieroglyph:

PotKettleBlack.png
 
Janadele said:
As I have stated earlier in this thread, my own personal experience was an all encompassing warmth or burning within, plus an overwhelming opening up of understanding and knowledge and a certainty of truth which could not be denied.
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Janadele, I had a very similar experience at a science fiction convention in 1999 when, dressed as a character from the Dragonlance series of books, I hugged My best friend in a passageway of the hotel suite we were running. Why should I worship your particular god, and not Paladine, Takhisis, Lunitari or some other member of the Krynnish pantheon?
 
Janadele said:
Pixel, if you are sincere and listen, the Spirit of Jesus will testify to you. Your own Spirit will also. It is not just a matter of "sincerely ask God if it's true and see if you get a burning in the bosom" which you say you have done. In this reference, are you referring to the promise of the Lord as stated in the Book of Mormon: "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost." This is a specific promise to those who sincerely read at least 50 pages of the version published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of the Book of Mormon. Each word of this promise is significant. Did you "receive these things" did you "have faith in Christ" before asking the Eternal Father? Notice also there is no mention of "a burning" within the promise. As I have stated earlier in this thread, my own personal experience was an all encompassing warmth or burning within, plus an overwhelming opening up of understanding and knowledge and a certainty of truth which could not be denied.
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You just haven't even begun to assess the scope of your problem here have you. Don't you get it? Your beliefs are incorrect. I don't mean spiritually or theologically either. What you believe is factually incorrect. You prophet/scam artist lied. The BoA proves he lied. There were no chariots, swords, or cultivated barley in the pre-Colombian Americas. This isn't some issue with interpretation either. Your guy made it all up and got the facts incorrect. You burning sensation just isn't good enough evidence in the face of the overwhelming proof that Smith was a liar.
 
Akhenaten said:
Indeed.

I'd be very interested to learn more about Janadele's understanding of ancient Egyptian customs, culture, religion and language and how she has drawn upon that knowledge to arrive at her surety that Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Abraham is valid.
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Woos never fail to tell us about the vast knowledge they have gained by going beyond the realms of the possible, they always fail when it comes to sharing that knowledge. It usually comes down to 'believe and you shall know' which puts the cart squarely in front of the donkey.

The problem is that once you throw reason aside you're on a course that could end in drinking poison laced flavor-aid in the jungle.
 
Akhenaten said:
​

I wonder what 'Hat-O-Scope' Smith would make of this hieroglyph:

[qimg]http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/PotKettleBlack.png[/qimg]​
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If I was a Mormon apologist I'd admit Smith got it wrong but claim that that's because he didn't follow his rock in a hat technique and depended on the wit and power of men instead of on the inspiration of god therefore the BoA is a lesson in hubris straight from the Prophet (blessed be his hat).
 
bruto said:
She is careful to say it's not the child's fault. It's someone's. Probably yours. If there's a distinction here between Janadele's position and that of the zanies who think massive tidal waves and floods are God's way of telling us to stop tolerating homosexuals it's poorly articulated.
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There is no distinction, which is what makes this doctrine of "magical cause and effect" unspeakably evil in application.

If we were to say that God is capricious and cruel, so as to sometimes cause cancer in a child for no reason (or because He "wants the child with Him in heaven")... well, that's just our tough luck to live under the jurisdiction of such a being. But in the end it's not much different from saying we live in a godless universe of cause and effect that sometimes has capricious and cruel results beyond our power to prevent. It's just our tough luck that way too.

Or we can say that we live in a God-created universe that's randomly contaminated with floating bits of original sin or whatever. God has no desire for these bad things to happen and does not make them happen, but for whatever reason has decided not to intervene to prevent them, so when one of them comes along and instills a tumor in an innocent child -- again, tough luck for us, but we can only shrug, do our best to avoid or fix the bad things, and make the best of what life brings us.

But when we say that the innocent child's cancer is the deliberate magical cause and effect result of someone else's misdeed -- not an actual cause and effect, such as if someone had poisoned the child with a carcinogen, but divinely ordered magical cause and effect to punish the wickedness of some person who may or may not even be associated with the child, by the child dying of cancer -- then we've entered a moral wasteland.

In the moral wasteland, every misfortune is someone else's fault, even if the one at fault has no way to know it and might not have had any ill intentions.

In the moral wasteland, any action no matter how overtly harmless -- blasphemy, unsanctioned sex, naughty thoughts -- can be said to cause horrible consequences to someone else. That justifies any measure to prevent those sins, as self-defense. No matter how harsh the measure or how arbitrary the designation of the sin.

In the moral wasteland, allowing gay marriage in California might cause drought or sickness in Utah, and so must be prevented at all costs.

In the moral wasteland, God is not so much cruel, as hapless. He doesn't want to give the child cancer, but somebody masturbated and now some warped system of magical justice ("Divine Law") says He has to.

In the moral wasteland, religious freedom cannot be permitted if it can be prevented. Every heretic, every apostate, every atheist is a bull in God's china shop who can bring down God's wrath on the good people for failing to punish them. (God will, however, cut the good people some slack if they temporarily lack the power to carry out a full-scale crusade, as long as they do their best as their abilities permit.)

If there were a Satan, there's little worse he could do than lead as many people as possible into that moral wasteland.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
tsig said:
If I was a Mormon apologist I'd admit Smith got it wrong but claim that that's because he didn't follow his rock in a hat technique and depended on the wit and power of men instead of on the inspiration of god therefore the BoA is a lesson in hubris straight from the Prophet (blessed be his hat).
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If you were a Mormon apologist, my friend, I'd be well on my way to believing that I could own my own planet (blessed be your sanity).

:)
 
Janadele said:
Herod acted on his own evil intent, which fulfilled prophecy, but did not, as poblob has incorrectly indicated, "happen to fulfil a prophecy"
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The character of god in the Bible did nothing to save those children. It reflects the sentiments of the writers at the time. Armies would often slaughter children so it was nothing new (armies in third world nations still slaughter children). People had no intrinsic worth. A king (lord) could order anyone's death at any time.

Such a legend would not likely be canonized as scripture in a modern liberal democracy today. We have a different moral system that finds the killing of innocents among the worst of evils, today we would call it a human rights violation. Not many would canonize as scripture a legend where innocents are slaughtered and the protagonist does nothing to help. Further it would make an incoherent story. It adds drama but makes no logical sense if the protagonist is omniscient and omnipotent. We would need some plot device to render the protagonist unable to help. Think kryptonite to superman. Otherwise it's really bad literature. Superman saves baby Jesus but let's all of the other babies die when he could simply have killed Herod. That makes the character of god unsympathetic. And renders him a college prankster, Ha ha Herod. We got you.
 
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Janadele said:
Pixel, if you are sincere and listen, the Spirit of Jesus will testify to you. Your own Spirit will also. It is not just a matter of "sincerely ask God if it's true and see if you get a burning in the bosom" which you say you have done. In this reference, are you referring to the promise of the Lord as stated in the Book of Mormon: "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, He will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost." This is a specific promise to those who sincerely read at least 50 pages of the version published by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of the Book of Mormon. Each word of this promise is significant. Did you "receive these things" did you "have faith in Christ" before asking the Eternal Father? Notice also there is no mention of "a burning" within the promise. As I have stated earlier in this thread, my own personal experience was an all encompassing warmth or burning within, plus an overwhelming opening up of understanding and knowledge and a certainty of truth which could not be denied.
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We have a robust theory of the cognitive and neurophysiological aspects of spiritual experience of revelation. We also understand the environmental triggers of these events. They include prayer, fasting, repetitive ritual, peer suggestion (see Asch Experiment).

We simply know far too much about human behavior, cognition, physiology, and psychology to suppose that these events are supernatural.

BTW: All religious communities experience them.
 
Pup said:
For what it's worth, Cat Tale told me she'd say pretty much the same as the paragraph that Beelzebuddy proposed and that I quoted in post #4449.

She asked me, are you claiming that's what I think in post #4449? I said, well, I sort of thought it was, but I didn't want to speak for you, so I didn't come right out and claim it. She said, well, I thought it was kind of implied.

So that's why she didn't post--there wasn't anything new or different to add and she kinda thought I'd already implied where she stood.

So, to clarify because I've talked to her and know for sure now: Her viewpoint is the same as Beelzebuddy suggested, but if you want her to actually post that, she can.
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Thanks,Pup.
"We believe the lessons contained in the BoA are just as relevant today, and thus - regardless of historical origin - hold it in the highest theological regard."
 
Pixel42 said:
Given that Mormons seem to believe in a Devil that interferes directly in the world, one thing I've never understood is how they can be so sure that it's God rather than the Devil ...
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The way to tell if a Messenger is from Heavenly Father or from Lucifer is to shake the hand. A Messenger from God has a physical body, a Messenger from Lucifer has not.

" In all his evil doings, the adversary can go no further than the transgressor permits him to go, and we can gain complete power to resist the evils caused by Satan through adherence to the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1974/10/power-over-satan?lang=eng
 
Janadele said:
The way to tell if a Messenger is from Heavenly Father or from Lucifer is to shake the hand. A Messenger from God has a physical body, a Messenger from Lucifer has not.

" In all his evil doings, the adversary can go no further than the transgressor permits him to go, and we can gain complete power to resist the evils caused by Satan through adherence to the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1974/10/power-over-satan?lang=eng
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How does that work on the Internet?
 
Janadele said:
The way to tell if a Messenger is from Heavenly Father or from Lucifer is to shake the hand. A Messenger from God has a physical body, a Messenger from Lucifer has not.
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I mentioned that in post #4520. But it wouldn't answer Pixel42's original question about the burning in the bosom.

Pixel42 said:
Given that Mormons seem to believe in a Devil that interferes directly in the world, one thing I've never understood is how they can be so sure that it's God rather than the Devil that provides the burning in the bosom. I mean, isn't that exactly what Satan would do? Deliberately lead good people into blasphemy by appealing to their vanity and desire to feel special, so that they wilfully refuse to use the brains that God has actually given them to find the truth?
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I have a side question for Janadele. Janadele, one of the important commandments is "Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor." Do you believe this is important? As a followup question, do you believe it is acceptable to bear false witness against your neighbor for the purposes of facilitating proselytization?
 
Janadele said:
The way to tell if a Messenger is from Heavenly Father or from Lucifer is to shake the hand. A Messenger from God has a physical body, a Messenger from Lucifer has not.
" In all his evil doings, the adversary can go no further than the transgressor permits him to go, and we can gain complete power to resist the evils caused by Satan through adherence to the principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1974/10/power-over-satan?lang=eng
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That's just what Lucifer wants you to think.
 
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