Oscar Pistorius shoots girlfriend

[Nessie]

South Africa has 12.7 guns per 100 people, making it 50th in the world for ownership. The firearm homicide rate is 17.3 per 100,000 and overall homicide rate is 29.1 per 100,000, which is 17th in the world.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2012/jul/22/gun-ownership-homicides-map

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/violence/by-country/

Rolf's earlier comment that Americans think they live in South Africa is astute.

There does appear to be a particular problem with domestic shootings.

 

[Natan]

Most of the people I have heard reference this use it to support the notion that Oscar clearly had fears about his safety and was prone to worrying about intruders, therefore, it's no surprise that this happened.

Well duh:

There were indications that Pistorius had fears about his safety. In an interview with the Daily Mail before the London 2012 Games it was revealed he slept with a pistol next to his bed and kept a machine gun by a window.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/feb/14/oscar-pistorius-girlfriend-shot-dead

That was before he even met Steenkamp. My wife's idol Lucky Dube was shot some time ago in South Africa. Being famous and rich can make you a target. It's hard to say whether it is true paranoia. Maybe he had burglary attempts before. They broke into my house last year and I just heard from a neighbour who didn't lock his back door that they stole in his house yesterday. I would therefore not judge easily.

To me it seems equally (or more) likely that he sent out that tweet to support his story about this later "accident."

You do realize they started dating only end of last year? That would imply he planned to kill her from the very beginning of the relationship. Not bloody likely.

Am I being overly suspicious?

Yes.

 

[angrysoba]

If she had been in his house all the time as cctv purportly shows and her body was found in the bathroom dressed in underwear, then it was no accident. For the state to argue premeditation, and they have the forensic report, Oscar is going down for murder.

Very sad state of affairs.

I'm only saying it is a possibility, even if a very, very slender one. I put the word "possibility" in italics the first time in order to show just how very unlikely I think that possibility is. On the face of it the murder seems inexplicable. I think we'll just have to wair for his side of the story given that he is denying murdering her.

 

[Malkmus]

I'm only saying it is a possibility, even if a very, very slender one. I put the word "possibility" in italics the first time in order to show just how very unlikely I think that possibility is. On the face of it the murder seems inexplicable. I think we'll just have to wair for his side of the story given that he is denying murdering her.

He's disputing the charges. To me it seems like he isn't denying killing her, just that it was an accident. I could be wrong.

 

[angrysoba]

He's disputing the charges. To me it seems like he isn't denying killing her, just that it was an accident. I could be wrong.

Yeah, I haven't seen anyone dispute he killed her; I specifically said he is denying the murder charge.

 

[Natan]

He's disputing the charges. To me it seems like he isn't denying killing her, just that it was an accident. I could be wrong.

We'll just have to wait and see. There are arguments pro accident but also pro murder. Of some of those arguments it is also not clear whether they are rumor or fact, or full details are lacking.

 

[marplots]

We'll just have to wait and see. There are arguments pro accident but also pro murder. Of some of those arguments it is also not clear whether they are rumor or fact, or full details are lacking.

Yes. Without the details, I'm stumped.

 

[SomedayGirl]

Looks like 2nd degree/ crime of passion to me so I'll throw my CT now...the prosecutor overcharged, knowing he can't make premeditation so Pistorious walks, as it were.

 

[Doghouse Reilly]

You do realize they started dating only end of last year? That would imply he planned to kill her from the very beginning of the relationship. Not bloody likely.

No, I didn't know that. I agree it is not likely, then. Still, pretty convenient for him to have put that out there.

 

[Skwinty]

.....the prosecutor overcharged, knowing he can't make premeditation so Pistorious walks, as it were.

If the premeditation charge sticks then he can be sentenced to life in prison.

If it doesn't, then maybe 20 years.

The law talks about schedule 5 and schedule 6 violent crimes.

The african musician Jub Jub and a friend killed and injured a number of school kids in a street racing accident.

They were sentenced to 20 years and lost all subsequent appeals.

 

[anglolawyer]

Yes. Without the details, I'm stumped.

 

[Skwinty]

Yeah, I haven't seen anyone dispute he killed her; I specifically said he is denying the murder charge.

According to News24 it was his parents and agents who denied the murder charge in the strongest possible terms. I don't believe Oscar has made any statements at all.

 

[Skwinty]

Now there are concerns for Oscars emotional well being.

Shades of Shrien Dewani?

 

[SomedayGirl]

If the premeditation charge sticks then he can be sentenced to life in prison.

If it doesn't, then maybe 20 years.

The law talks about schedule 5 and schedule 6 violent crimes.

The african musician Jub Jub and a friend killed and injured a number of school kids in a street racing accident.

They were sentenced to 20 years and lost all subsequent appeals.

I was wondering how that works in SA - here when you are charged with first degree/ capital murder (premeditation or in commission of another felony usually), if the jury doesn't find those specific prerequisites then the accused must be found not guilty. The jury may think the accused definitely killed the victim, and that a crime was surely committed, but they don't get to make a finding of guilt in deliberation to 2nd degree or manslaughter or something else. They have to make their determination based on the charge they are given.

That's why I was thinking if the prosecutor in Pistorius' case wants to leave an out, overcharging in a way that leaves him/her unable to make the burden would be a way of doing that. Maybe in SA the highest level of murder charge includes all the levels below it, leaving the jury to choose one that is appropriate?

 

[Skwinty]

SA does not have the jury system.

Even if you kill some one in an accident you can still be charged with murder.

 

[SomedayGirl]

Here we'd most often call an unintended death some variation on manslaughter, but I think the net result is the same. EX. vehicular manslaughter is sometimes the charge for an alcohol-related fatality. Your behind could be in prison for 10 or 20 years over that.

And if SA does trials by judge or jurists not citizen jury, then I can see how overcharging might not help. It seems a judge should have the discretionary power to make a finding that you wouldn't afford to a panel of citizens who have no legal training. Dang, another perfectly good CT down the drain.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Oscar sent out a tweet in November saying:

"Nothing like getting home to hear the washing machine on and thinking its an intruder to go into full combat recon mode into the pantry!"

Most of the people I have heard reference this use it to support the notion that Oscar clearly had fears about his safety and was prone to worrying about intruders...

He thought someone had broken in to do his laundry? If that were part of a fieldish plot, it looks like an attempt to build an insanity plea.

 

[Skwinty]

My take on this is:

Oscar has a history of bad temper and disdain for women, other than his mother.

Reeva was probably breaking off their 3 month relationship.

A huge argument ensued and Reeva took refuge in the bathroom.

Oscar shot through the door thinking she was probably sitting on the toilet crying.

She was standing by the door.

So I don't think he planned to kill her, but that was the result of his anger.

I of course could be totally wrong,

 

[ddt]

I was wondering how that works in SA - here when you are charged with first degree/ capital murder (premeditation or in commission of another felony usually), if the jury doesn't find those specific prerequisites then the accused must be found not guilty. The jury may think the accused definitely killed the victim, and that a crime was surely committed, but they don't get to make a finding of guilt in deliberation to 2nd degree or manslaughter or something else. They have to make their determination based on the charge they are given.

That's why I was thinking if the prosecutor in Pistorius' case wants to leave an out, overcharging in a way that leaves him/her unable to make the burden would be a way of doing that. Maybe in SA the highest level of murder charge includes all the levels below it, leaving the jury to choose one that is appropriate?

AFAIK, what a DA in the USA does in such a case, is to prosecute for AND murder 1 AND murder 2 AND manslaughter 1 AND manslaughter 2, etc. So the jury simply gets to say yes or no on the highest charge the DA thinks is applicable as well as for all lesser charges of homicide. The press reports, of course, only mention the highest one.

(I don't know your locale, I just assumed US, but my guess is this works in pretty well any locale).

 

[ddt]

My take on this is:

Oscar has a history of bad temper and disdain for women, other than his mother.

Reeva was probably breaking off their 3 month relationship.

A huge argument ensued and Reeva took refuge in the bathroom.

Oscar shot through the door thinking she was probably sitting on the toilet crying.

She was standing by the door.

So I don't think he planned to kill her, but that was the result of his anger.

I of course could be totally wrong,

Could be. I was wondering about two things.

First: four shots hit her in head, chest, pelvis and hands. That seems a pretty wide range. Depending on where the shots hit the door, it can mean either
(1) he tried to aim for, so to say, the walls and ceiling of the bathroom just to scare her, but hit her because she was standing just on the other side of the door as you mention; or
(2) he tried to hit her anyway, wherever she was in the bathroom.
That depends on the projected trajectory of the bullets if they had gone further into the bathroom, and how good a shooter he was.

Second: she has been hit four times. However, the (distasteful) Sun cover mentions three shots - silence - three more shots; so six shots in total. There were six shots in total - four hits and two misses?

Anyway, tragic affair.