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Janadele said:
No Sideroxylon, I have no interest in wading through error and the works of Lucifer. Anti-Mormons are a peculiar people, they devote their life and resources to following Satan and attempting to discredit the Lord's Church through any means they can. Demonstrating outside the Conference Centre, disrupting LDS Pageants, distributing false and misleading movies and literature... are just some of their antics.
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Members of many different religions report overwhelming personal experiences bringing them to faith. However at least some of them must be wrong, mustn't they? Do you have a lot of time for the revelations of Muhammad, Janadele? How would a member of a misguided heathen religion ever discover the truth if they wrote off all gainsayers and their sources as guided by Satan? They would be a bit stuck, wouldn't they.

What if you are misguided? Perhaps tricked into a belief not by Satan but by your own emotions and foibles of the human mind. Perhaps some things that Joseph Smith said about the history of America, or Facsimile One are demonstratively false. If you don't allow yourself to examine these questions and criticism you can never know.

And then there is the question of what you hope to achieve in this thread. If you genuinely hope to bring members of this sceptic community to their salvation you need to boldly face the claims against Mormonism head on. You need to try to understand the criticism and defend against it. As you know there are plenty of crib notes for that produced by your church. The secret to this approach is to read them understand them, internalize them and fight back.

Now if it turns out through doing so that you have got rational argument on your side then surely your faith can only become stronger and you a better advocate for your faith. You might also discover in your journey that some of the teachings of your church are false and take a new path in life. But if you are not going to make an honest rational argument in this thread you may as well quit while you are only this far behind. The putting your fingers in your ears thing looks very silly.
 
Janadele said:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham2.shtml

There are many LDS Scholars who have researched and written on the Book of Abraham... Such as Jeff in the above link. They are their own opinions, but are interesting for those who intrigued by the subject.

Personally, I accept the Scriptures, Doctrine and teachings as received by the Prophets of God and which have been canonised as official LDS Scripture, and have no personal need for further elaboration or research. The Lord has given us more than enough for us to study, understand and abide by... there is little time for more in all the days of our mortal life. :)
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Post 1425
 
Janadele said:
... non believers who question are not counted as anti-Mormon.

Anti-Mormons are a group of obsessive fanatics who devote their life and resources to producing and distributing literature and videos which deliberately present cunning lies, deceptions, misinformation and twisted focus on the LDS Church.

Lucifer is well aware that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored Church of Christ and arrays his army against it. Other enemies of the LDS Church who promote and distribute these products are also included in the term.
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Post 1171
 
When the same misunderstandings or questions are being posted, then the same previous answers apply.
 
I went around to your link, Janadele.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham2.shtml

Seriously, The Testament of Abraham is given as evidence for the genuine nature of Smith's scam, I kid you not.

"For years the critics have also charged that the idea of stories about Abraham appearing in Egyptian documents was unfounded, and that scenes like Facsimile 1 could not possibly have anything to do with Abraham. There was simply no link in Egyptian writings between Abraham and the Egyptians, they contended.

These criticisms lost some of their force with the discovery of several ancient documents from Egypt, including several from the same time and place as Facsimile 1 (Thebes, about 2000 years ago), which increase the plausibility of Joseph Smith's comments on Facsimile 1. Michael Rhodes [Rhodes, 1992-a] mentions two recently discovered ancient documents (pseudepigrapha) in particular, the Testament of Abraham and the Apocalypse of Abraham. These texts show a relationship between Abraham and the Egyptians, refuting the claim of modern critics that there is no evidence for such a relationship."

Of course my next stop was to find out a bit about the texts in question.
"...was likely written originally in Greek, by someone living in Egypt at the time. This is due to the fact that the vocabulary found in the text is quite similar to the vocabulary used in the later books of the Septuagint, which were being written at that time, in addition to other books, such as 3 Maccabees, that we know were written around that time in Egypt. In addition, there are aspects of the story that seem to reflect aspects of Egyptian life, such as the three judgments which mirror the three levels of Egyptian government. Unfortunately these reasons for the place of origin being Egypt are only supported by the long recension of the Testament of Abraham.[15]

The short recension therefore has no definite place or date of origin. While it would be logical to assume that it had its origins in the same place and time as the long recension, as there is no concrete evidence, any Jewish cultural center could therefore be a possibility for its origin."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testament_of_Abraham

And not content with citing that work, your source goes for The Apocalypse of Abraham, so I found out more about it.
"...The Apocalypse of Abraham is a pseudepigraphic work (a text whose claimed authorship is unfounded) based on the Old Testament. Probably composed between about 70–150 AD, it is of Jewish origin and is usually considered to be part of the Apocalyptic literature. It has survived only in Old Slavonic recensions—it is not regarded as authoritative scripture by Jews or any Christian group."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse_of_Abraham


As far as I can see the rest of the article is on the same level.
Why even bother to expose this sort of thing to the light of day, Janadele?
 
Janadele said:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_Abraham2.shtml

There are many LDS Scholars who have researched and written on the Book of Abraham... Such as Jeff in the above link. They are their own opinions, but are interesting for those who intrigued by the subject.

Personally, I accept the Scriptures, Doctrine and teachings as received by the Prophets of God and which have been canonised as official LDS Scripture, and have no personal need for further elaboration or research. The Lord has given us more than enough for us to study, understand and abide by... there is little time for more in all the days of our mortal life. :)
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So you do not care for the examined life. Each to their own, Janadelle, but what do you hope to achieve here if you cannot offer a reasoned argument?

Janadele said:
No Shalamar, non believers who question are not counted as anti-Mormon.

Anti-Mormons are a group of obsessive fanatics who devote their life and resources to producing and distributing literature and videos which deliberately present cunning lies, deceptions, misinformation and twisted focus on the LDS Church.

Lucifer is well aware that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored Church of Christ and arrays his army against it. Other enemies of the LDS Church who promote and distribute these products are also included in the term.

I started this thread to answer off topic questions which were being asked in another thread. The purpose of this thread was to present and discuss the actual teachings and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not to present anti-Mormon propaganda and literature. My continual requests for another thread be created for such posts have been ignored. I can therefore no longer participate in this thread.
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Unless you demonstrate the falsehood of any of the claims directed at your church dogma this is nothing but bald assertion. Are we to accept this solely on your say so or that of your church leaders? Of course you don't believe we would. You understand this is a sceptics forum and you know that we want rational argument. Again, what are you trying to do with this thread?
 
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Janadele said:
When the same misunderstandings or questions are being posted, then the same previous answers apply.
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Rubbish, Janadelle. You simply reaffirmed your commitment to faith and ignored my pointing out the obvious fact that you could be wrong and will never know it unless you face the controversy.
 
Janadele said:
No Sideroxylon, I have no interest in wading through error and the works of Lucifer. Anti-Mormons are a peculiar people, they devote their life and resources to following Satan and attempting to discredit the Lord's Church through any means they can. Demonstrating outside the Conference Centre, disrupting LDS Pageants, distributing false and misleading movies and literature... are just some of their antics.
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In Perth???


Pics or it didn't happen.
 
Janadele said:
Post 1171
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What would you say if I wrote:

Mormons are a group of obsessive fanatics who devote their life and resources to producing and distributing literature and videos which deliberately present cunning lies, deceptions, misinformation and twisted focus on the Church.


From an external perspective, I see no functional difference between what you wrote and I what the above reversed state says. In fact, I could readily find evidence to support both arguments.

These statements are really only self-confirming inflammatory generalizations that don't actually explain anything.
 
Janadele said:
No pakeha that is not correct. My response of "lying propanganda" referred to anti-Mormon sites... as per sequence below quoted.
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You have yet to explain why any site with which you disagree (even, for instance, BYU) is an "anti-mormon" source.

You have yet to explain why you can dismiss anti-mormon sources, by pointing to "pro-mormon" (one could as easily say, "anti-atheist") sources.

You have yet to provide what you would find an acceptable "neutral source".

You have yet to even begin to address the possibility of a "neutral source", given that any honest investigator whose work leads to disagreement with your dogma becomes, in your mind, an "anti-mormon" source.

Why are you here?
 
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Sideroxylon said:
So you do not care for the examined life. Each to their own, Janadelle, but what do you hope to achieve here if you cannot offer a reasoned argument?
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I originally thought that there must be kind of reward sytem in operation that works by giving Frequent Preacher™ points to LDS members for their efforts in browbeating the unsaved that would count towards their Godhood And Planet Ownership Score, but since other members/ex-members of the LDS have chimed in and made it obvious that Janadele is in a branch of the cult with but a single member I find myself sharing your question.

WTF is the reason for this forum-wide campaign of obnoxia?
 
Janadele said:
No Sideroxylon, I have no interest in wading through error and the works of Lucifer. Anti-Mormons are a peculiar people, they devote their life and resources to following Satan and attempting to discredit the Lord's Church through any means they can. Demonstrating outside the Conference Centre, disrupting LDS Pageants, distributing false and misleading movies and literature... are just some of their antics.
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Which Egyptologist, translating the Book of Breathing, and not finding Abraham's autographic diary (which you say makes them an "anti-mormon"), has done any of the other things of which your unsupported accusations consist?
 
Akhenaten said:
I originally thought that there must be kind of reward sytem in operation that works by giving Frequent Preacher™ points to LDS members for their efforts in browbeating the unsaved that would count towards their Godhood And Planet Ownership Score, but since other members/ex-members of the LDS have chimed in and made it obvious that Janadele is in a branch of the cult with but a single member I find myself sharing your question.

WTF is the reason for this forum-wide campaign of obnoxia?
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...leveling up in "witnessing" and gaining XP for "smiting the godless..."?


ETA: BTW, "obnoxia" is eloquent. Thank you, O Pharaoh (may you post forever)!
 
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Janadele said:
No Sideroxylon, I have no interest in wading through error and the works of Lucifer. Anti-Mormons are a peculiar people, they devote their life and resources to following Satan and attempting to discredit the Lord's Church through any means they can. Demonstrating outside the Conference Centre, disrupting LDS Pageants, distributing false and misleading movies and literature... are just some of their antics.
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Well, lucky for you, you needn't visit any anti-Mormon sites. You can go to academic sources like the Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago or the Cairo Museum of Egyptian Antiquities. You can read the works of Egyptologists such as Zahi Hawass, Salima Ikram, Robert K. Ritner, or any of hundreds of others who can actually read ancient Egyptian. They will all tell you what the hypocephali "translated" by Smith really say.

Or you can look at the genetics studies of the human population. These show clearly that the native populations of the Americas and Pacific Islands are in no way descended from Hebrew ancestry.

Or consult any linguist, anthropologist, archaeologist, etcetera.

You see, it's not just "anti-Mormon" sources who say that Joseph Smith's claims are false, it's virtually everyone who understands anything about the subjects of those claims who isn't a Mormon determined not to challenge LDS doctrine. Even some Mormon scholars admit that there are things that just aren't true, such as the "translation" of the Book of Abraham.
 
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