LDS

[Shalamar]

No Sideroxylon, I have no interest in wading through error and the works of Lucifer. Anti-Mormons are a peculiar people, they devote their life and resources to following Satan and attempting to discredit the Lord's Church through any means they can. Demonstrating outside the Conference Centre, disrupting LDS Pageants, distributing false and misleading movies and literature... are just some of their antics.

You are afraid.

 

[Pup]

My God!!!

It's just as Janadele described it!

No, wait . . . it's nothing like that at all.

quelle surprise

Actually, what Janadele describes does go on. There are anti-Mormons who really do hate the church with a Westboro-Baptist-style passion. They just don't happen to be Egyptologists.

For example:

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...nt_helps_explain_mormon_identity_photos_.html

In the 1980s, the [Hill Cumorah] pageant [in New York state] became a pilgrimage site for another group entirely: hard-right evangelicals. So explains professor Hillary Kaell, a scholar of American religious history who has studied the pageant extensively. After a period of tense relations, the LDS Church and these evangelicals, mostly from nearby Palmyra, came to a compromise. LDS officials designated areas on the edge of their property where the group could distribute evangelical literature.

But in the last decade, Kaell says, “a new breed of ‘professional’ protesters” has begun to show up, coming from nearby cities like Rochester—and even caravanning up from as far south as Tennessee and Virginia.

The article puts the protests in the context of the church's earlier persecution and explains how the pageant has had to adapt to the protestors by putting up a fence, hiring security guards and moving the parking lot:

Before, pageant-goers had to cross Route 21 and pass through what some described as a “gauntlet” of anti-Mormon protesters. “They were just nasty,” explains Bonnie J. Hays, the motherly, red-haired executive director of Palmyra’s Historic Museum. “Yeah, they’ve got ‘freedom of speech—it’s in the Constitution,” Hays recognizes. But, she says, it’s not very Christian or American to scream invectives at the families who visit the Hill Cumorah. “They target women and children, calling them names that I won’t repeat, and make them cry. We’ve got lots of different religions here. And we just don’t do that in America.”

Unfortunately, Janadele is using such real outbursts from other fanatical Christians as an excuse to ignore even the most reasonable, disinterested people when they contradict her world-view.

 

[Akhenaten]

Anti-Morman literature pushed upon me while blocking my walkway.

Interesting; not a typo you normally see from someone who is a Mormon.

Meryl the Mormaid​

 

[Akhenaten]

Actually, what Janadele describes does go on. There are anti-Mormons who really do hate the church with a Westboro-Baptist-style passion.

I have no doubt this is true, mate, and I should have been a bit less dismissive of that particular claim.

They just don't happen to be Egyptologists.

They don't happen to be us, either, and it's Janadele's implication that they are which keeps me from feeling too badly about myself for my apparent lack of sympathy.

Sincere thanks though, for helping with my perspective. I think I might have been getting a bit too strident.

 

[Craig4]

When the same misunderstandings or questions are being posted, then the same previous answers apply.

That would be true if you answers were good enough. They are not.

 

[Craig4]

My own personal experiences of such are numerous. For example, during my visits to the US:
Whilst attending the Conference Centre, Tabernacle, and Temple in Salt Lake City. Whilst attending the LDS Pageants at Nauvoo Illinois, at Manti Utah, at Palmyra Wayne county, Western New York ... even at the entrance to the Deseret Bookshop at Palmyra:
Objectionable placards shoved in my face. Loudspeakers screaming obscenities and blasphemy. Trucks with obscene placards blocking parking entrances. Anti-Mormon literature pushed upon me while blocking my walkway.

Were they saying that Smith was a pervert liar who needed an abortionist to get rid of the evidence of his sexual deviance? That's not blasphemy or even dishonest; it's just the truth you've decided to lie to yourself about.

 

[Agatha]

Can someone enlighten me as to what a 'pageant' is in a Mormon context? The word to me conjures up those dreadful child beauty contests with sexualised children wearing a ton of make up being paraded by pushy parents.

 

[deaman]

I originally thought that there must be kind of reward sytem in operation that works by giving Frequent Preacher™ points to LDS members for their efforts in browbeating the unsaved that would count towards their Godhood And Planet Ownership Score, but since other members/ex-members of the LDS have chimed in and made it obvious that Janadele is in a branch of the cult with but a single member I find myself sharing your question.

WTF is the reason for this forum-wide campaign of obnoxia?

It is very human, to want a reward, a big reward, for living a life. It's kinda funny when it's put that way.

Janadele, do you have to have a reward (heaven) for living a life of virtue? Suppose there was no reward? Would you then be other than what you are now?

Do you give your church 10% of all you make? Why does god need money?

And why can't you just ask god to make an appearence here, to save all his children? Is he hiding?

It's amazing how you can, in good conscience, just wave away all these good people. You really think that everyone here is an evil devil, and that you are a victim.

You are not a victim. You are not being tested or persecuted. You're being shown the truth and you don't want to look at it, because then you won't feel special.

You are afraid of the boogie man.

Janadele, dare to know, that is the motto of enlightenment.

The only thing you can see is what you are.

 

[RandFan]

Can someone enlighten me as to what a 'pageant' is in a Mormon context? The word to me conjures up those dreadful child beauty contests with sexualised children wearing a ton of make up being paraded by pushy parents.

It's a play or "reenactment" performed outdoors. I have seen the Manti Miracle Pageant in Utah version which I must say was spectacular.

 

[Agatha]

Many thanks, RF.

 

[Pup]

Can someone enlighten me as to what a 'pageant' is in a Mormon context? The word to me conjures up those dreadful child beauty contests with sexualised children wearing a ton of make up being paraded by pushy parents.

What RandFan said.

Here in the U.S. they're not just a Mormon thing. They're big outdoor plays, usually about some historical event. Here's one about Indian chief Tecumseh: http://www.tecumsehdrama.com/ and another on Appalachian history: http://www.trailofthelonesomepine.com/

 

[deaman]

My family is planning on attending a Civil War re-enactment.

 

[deaman]

My family is planning on attending a Civil War re-enactment. It's a huge deal with many people dressed to the nines in period costumes.

I have heard it's very realistic, and that the participants take things very, very seriously.

 

[godless dave]

It's a play or "reenactment" performed outdoors. I have seen the Manti Miracle Pageant in Utah version which I must say was spectacular.

There is a large one at Hill Cumorah near where I grew up in western New York. It's where Smith allegedly found the golden plates.

 

[deaman]

In thinking about the "burning in the bosom" phrase, I could not help but notice that there are only two choices when asked if you've experinced said "burning".

It's sort of a classic catch 22.

If you say yes, I experience a "burning in my bosom", then hooray, god himself, or his spirit, has gotton in touch with you, and you are very special.

If you say "no" (and I wonder how many people say "no", to a peer group of people who expect you to say "yes"), then you are admitting that, not only are you not special, but you are perhaps, "unworthy", and "not good enough".

So, which choice do you think most people would take?

One has to be strong, in self-esteem and virtue, to stand alone and stay true to one's self.

 

[dudalb]

My family is planning on attending a Civil War re-enactment. It's a huge deal with many people dressed to the nines in period costumes.

I have heard it's very realistic, and that the participants take things very, very seriously.

Not quite the same as the kind of pageant being discussed here. The pageants have a script and dialogue, a Civil War Reenanctment battle generally do not. Oh, the battles are pre planned and choreographed,but it is not a formal drama the way a pageant is.

 

[RandFan]

In thinking about the "burning in the bosom" phrase, I could not help but notice that there are only two choices when asked if you've experinced said "burning".

It's sort of a classic catch 22.

If you say yes, I experience a "burning in my bosom", then hooray, god himself, or his spirit, has gotton in touch with you, and you are very special.

If you say "no" (and I wonder how many people say "no", to a peer group of people who expect you to say "yes"), then you are admitting that, not only are you not special, but you are perhaps, "unworthy", and "not good enough".

So, which choice do you think most people would take?

One has to be strong, in self-esteem and virtue, to stand alone and stay true to one's self.

I see your point. And I think it is important to note the effects of peer pressure. It's substantial and it is well understood (see Asch Conformity Experiment).

Anecdote Alert! That said, my experience was that children are not pressured to get the burning in the bosom and it's not something that people go around and ask others of. There is something akin to the Asch experiment and that is testimony meeting. At the testimony anyone who wants to can get up in front of the podium and bear his or her testimony to the congregation. These often include something to the effect of "I know the Church is true. I know Joseph Smith is a prophet". The podium is a place where you are in a position of respect. People don't want to be outcasts, they don't want to be different from the group. And it's can be a heady experience to stand up in front of everyone and proclaim that god has given you a message confirming that you are in deed a good person, a special person who belongs to gods chosen group.

Other than that people don't go around asking others about their burning of the bosom experiences.

ETA: I should note that my family moved a lot when I was growing up and when I served a mission I attended many different wards (think diocese). My experience was almost always the same. But I concede that my observations are anecdotal and I have no way to control for confirmation bias.

 

[deaman]

Check this out. This is a quote from the BoM:

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

The implication being, if you ask and don't receive a confirmation, you are unsincere, and without intent or faith.

Then there is the kicker, the implication that the Mormon church is in possession of, and have a corner on, truth and power.

Very hard to swim against it, if you are missing something in your life.

 

[Janadele]

Dismissing an answer from the Lord as merely "a burning" as if it were a regular occurance amongst many groups is making light of a significant sacred event and totally misunderstanding.

In my previous post regarding my own conversion I stated "I was asked to read the first few chapters and to pray to Jesus Christ and enquire as to whether it was true. On doing so, a burning within and a flood of knowledge overcame my being, there was no denying the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon and the message the LDS Missionaries had delivered to my door personally to me from the Lord." Not only a knowledge, but an understanding of that knowledge. It is a one time experience of a testimony direct to oneself from Jesus Christ... who has promised to all who read the Book of Mormon, and ask in prayer with a sincere heart, that the answer of the truthfullness of it will be given. This one time experience is different from the continuing testimony of the Holy Spirit who also assists in understanding and knowledge when one asks.

 

[Jon.]

Dismissing an answer from the Lord as merely "a burning" as if it were a regular occurance amongst many groups is making light of a significant sacred event and totally misunderstanding.

In my previous post regarding my own conversion I stated "I was asked to read the first few chapters and to pray to Jesus Christ and enquire as to whether it was true. On doing so, a burning within and a flood of knowledge overcame my being, there was no denying the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon and the message the LDS Missionaries had delivered to my door personally to me from the Lord." Not only a knowledge, but an understanding of that knowledge. It is a one time experience of a testimony direct to oneself from Jesus Christ... who has promised to all who read the Book of Mormon, and ask in prayer with a sincere heart, that the answer of the truthfullness of it will be given. This one time experience is different from the continuing testimony of the Holy Spirit who also assists in understanding and knowledge when one asks.

What makes you think that converts to other religions don't have the same experience as you did?

ETA: This is a serious question which I think deserves a response, Janadele, not just a rhetorical one. You said that the "burning within and ... flood of knowledge" was "a significant sacred event" which was somehow different from "regular occurrence" that happen with other religious groups. How was it different, and how do you know it was different? I'm really curious about this.