RandFan
Mormon Atheist
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You have posted in this thread alone 323 times. I doubt anyone has read all of your posts or remembers all of them.
LDS
- Thread starter Janadele
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DragonLady
Illuminator
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- Jun 20, 2003
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Awesome. Thank-you! Now, I see that you probably spend ~0~ hours of your pre-LDS life persecuting Mormons. You were busy with other things! Why...between the Salvation Army and Billy Graham, going to school, falling in love, getting married and having a child, I'll bet you didn't spend any time persecuting LDS members at all. Oh...I suppose you might've slipped in a snide comment about "magic underwear" to a classmate, or made fun of that big nail on top of the Mormon church. But otherwise...I'm guessing you had other things to do. You had other things to think about. You had other interests to persue.
So; just one more question, and I'll be outta your hair for a while:
What in the name of Zeus's armpit makes you believe that anyone else, here on the forums or anywhere else has any interest whatsoever in persecuting Mormons or leading them away from the True Path?
You claim that every source from DNA to Wikipedia is anti-Mormon, all lies, total fabrication, and just intended to tempt you into doubting your faith. We've heard it's propaganda, it's Satanic, it's mistranslated, it's broken, dirty, obscene, perverse, loose, mishapen, or upside down. It's anything, to hear you tell, except what the rest of us see it being: empirical, neutral evidence from people who do not have any time or interest in the Mormon church.
What in hell makes you think that any of the authors of the peer-reviewed articles, any of the scientists who have spent time and energy and money on research, and/or any of the countless men and women who have devoted their lives to collecting, identifying and interpreting the actual evidence of the world around them stops to even think -for even a moment- about the LDS and whether or not anyone chooses to be -or not to be- a Mormon???
MIKILLINI
Incromulent Logic
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- 2,979
Nonsense. It's you who avoids most of the questions.
Tef·lon [tef-lon] Noun
1. Trademark; a fluorocarbon polymer with slippery, nonsticking properties; polytetrafluoroethylene.
Adjective
2. characterized by imperviousness to blame or criticism.
The hilited part is an apt description of you.
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So, you were lonely and some people came to your door and told you you were golden. And you accepted it hook, line, and sinker.
Imagine if I told you that I was watching TV the other day, and the minister looked right at me, through the TV, and I felt a burning in my heart that the Architect of the Universe stopped everything to get in touch with ME.
I wonder what you'd say to me.
Imagine if I told you that I was watching TV the other day, and the minister looked right at me, through the TV, and I felt a burning in my heart that the Architect of the Universe stopped everything to get in touch with ME.
I wonder what you'd say to me.
SezMe
post-pre-born
It has occurred to me that maybe the topic of this thread, LDS, is not as simple as it appears to be. First, could it be that when Janadele uses the acronym, she is really referring to what we (in the USA, anyway) think of as the FLDS? Janadele, are you aware of the breakaway FLDS sect? Are you a member of that group?
Second, are there a wide range of beliefs within the "standard" LDS? For example, there is a huge range of beliefs subsumed under the single word "Methodist". Or Catholic. Or Lutheran. Is the same diversity extant under Mormonism? If so, is Janadele maybe just a standard member of the fringe of the fringe of Mormonism? One that the lay public such as most of us is just not aware of.
Mind you, I'm not taking a bite of the fruitcake that has been offered up in this thread. I'm just looking to see if there's a bigger context that might be useful to know about.
I'd particularly appreciate comment from the knowledgeable posters here as well as Janadele and skyrider44.
TIA
Second, are there a wide range of beliefs within the "standard" LDS? For example, there is a huge range of beliefs subsumed under the single word "Methodist". Or Catholic. Or Lutheran. Is the same diversity extant under Mormonism? If so, is Janadele maybe just a standard member of the fringe of the fringe of Mormonism? One that the lay public such as most of us is just not aware of.
Mind you, I'm not taking a bite of the fruitcake that has been offered up in this thread. I'm just looking to see if there's a bigger context that might be useful to know about.
I'd particularly appreciate comment from the knowledgeable posters here as well as Janadele and skyrider44.
TIA
Empress
Piggish
Janadele isn't FLDS. She agrees with the church no longer practicing polygamy (in this life), and that's a big thing with the FLDS and most other breakaways (Community of Christ/RLDS excepted). They tend to believe that the church went against God's will when they abandoned polygamy.
As for the idea of a spread of ideas within the mainstream church, yes it's there. Cat Tale is a clear example of someone who approaches her faith with science in mind. She accepts evolution, for example. On the other hand, RandFan has said that he was once a YEC and that many he knew were as well. Myself, I've never met a YEC Mormon, but I also don't personally know any who accept evolution.
I don't think, however that you can draw a parallel between Mormons and say, Baptists, since to my knowledge, each Baptist church tends to be independent, and only holds to the primary Baptist views. One church might be liberal, another conservative, but they'll all agree that you are saved by faith alone, and not works.
I think the Catholic church is a closer parallel, since it's a worldwide religion with a head in Rome, but even then I suspect there's more variation, if only because of the age difference between them. Mormons, in my experience, tend to be very close to the typical view of them. Family-oriented, industrious, reverent in church, etc. They present a common look, as well. I remember when my family first moved to FL and we went to church for the first time here. This was in the mid-70's so my older brother who would have been an older teen at the time had long hair as was the fashion. The Bishop took one look at him and told him he could cut his hair or he could not bother to come back. Not surprisingly, Brother took the bishop at his word, and didn't show back up. While it's not that cut-and-dried today, it's still very much suits for men, dresses for women, women are subservient, etc.
I do believe it's changing. For example, I see more people of color coming out of the church when I go to pick up my mother. The Word of Wisdom no longer requires you not to have caffeine (as long as you stay away from coffee and tea). And I fully expect that if the church wants to survive in industrialized countries, women will eventually get the Priesthood.
Still, however, this is a church that is very strongly oriented to the head of the church in SLC, and there is not, in my experience, as great a range of views among Mormons as there are in other religions. I should add, however that being overly Mormon isn't necessarily seen as a good thing. A common slur if someone is acting overbearingly righteous is to call them a "Molly Mormon". You're supposed to be Mormon, just not too Mormon.
No idea of the conversion factor. I know there's two ohms on a range, though.
Well said. Nominated!
SezMe
post-pre-born
Thanks ... helpful comments.
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
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Hi, Janadele.
May I take a moment to clear things up here?
was in reply to
We've been trying to show just how dishonest the LDS is in supporting the lying scam which is the Book of Abraham. I've repeatedly asked our Mormon posters to explain why they have faith in a demonstrable hoax.
In the end, Janadele has given the most cogent reason:
We know from Cat Tale that a prophet is defined by the 'burning in the bosom' feeling their words inspire in others (forgive me, Cat Tale if I misunderstood you on this) so there's really no doubt the 'burning in the bosom' trumps reality, at least for a believer.
All we can do is show the fraudulent, dishonesty of the bases for the LDS and hope that it may help those who read this thread to free themselves or loved ones from this noxious scam.
"They" are Egyptologists, who base their translations on the painstaking dedication of generations of scholars who have dedicated their lives to the subject.
If you'd like learn more about the amazing adventure of how Egyptologists came to decipher the language of the Pharaohs, you can always start with The Rosetta StoneWP and go from there.
I see you take issue with my choice of the word "lying".
Well, it WAS in response to your own use of the word as in "lying propaganda" to describe the work of Egyptology.
When you say that Smith's scam trumps the entire work of Egyptology, what you mean, if not that they are all lying?
All of them?
May I take a moment to clear things up here?
was in reply to
We've been trying to show just how dishonest the LDS is in supporting the lying scam which is the Book of Abraham. I've repeatedly asked our Mormon posters to explain why they have faith in a demonstrable hoax.
In the end, Janadele has given the most cogent reason:
We know from Cat Tale that a prophet is defined by the 'burning in the bosom' feeling their words inspire in others (forgive me, Cat Tale if I misunderstood you on this) so there's really no doubt the 'burning in the bosom' trumps reality, at least for a believer.
All we can do is show the fraudulent, dishonesty of the bases for the LDS and hope that it may help those who read this thread to free themselves or loved ones from this noxious scam.
"They" are Egyptologists, who base their translations on the painstaking dedication of generations of scholars who have dedicated their lives to the subject.
If you'd like learn more about the amazing adventure of how Egyptologists came to decipher the language of the Pharaohs, you can always start with The Rosetta StoneWP and go from there.
I see you take issue with my choice of the word "lying".
Well, it WAS in response to your own use of the word as in "lying propaganda" to describe the work of Egyptology.
When you say that Smith's scam trumps the entire work of Egyptology, what you mean, if not that they are all lying?
All of them?
SezMe
post-pre-born
Basically Janadele converted to LDS because of this burning sensation. See #3950.
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
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Yes, indeed.
That's why I mentioned it.
As a curiosity, when I worked with Chi Kung healing techniques and spent my hard-earned money on many workshops and courses imparted by Chinese 'masters', we were encouraged to take a sensation of 'burning in the bosom' as a sign true chi was flowing.
It's why I'm so interested in our Mormons' discussion, actually, because I have the impression what is a phenomena observable world-wide in shamanic teachings has been taken over by the LDS as 'proof' of the truthiness of Smith's scam.
As one who's experienced this feeling, I can testify it is beguiling, extremely beguiling indeed.
That's why I mentioned it.
As a curiosity, when I worked with Chi Kung healing techniques and spent my hard-earned money on many workshops and courses imparted by Chinese 'masters', we were encouraged to take a sensation of 'burning in the bosom' as a sign true chi was flowing.
It's why I'm so interested in our Mormons' discussion, actually, because I have the impression what is a phenomena observable world-wide in shamanic teachings has been taken over by the LDS as 'proof' of the truthiness of Smith's scam.
As one who's experienced this feeling, I can testify it is beguiling, extremely beguiling indeed.
Janadele
Banned
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No pakeha that is not correct. My response of "lying propanganda" referred to anti-Mormon sites... as per sequence below quoted.
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
Why don't you attempt to show us how some of the claims made by these anti-Mormon sites (those critical of Mormon dogma) are misrepresentations or lying? You know make an actual argument. This kind of situation is also called a discussion. There is a bit of to-and-fro in which people learn new things and sometimes question existing beliefs. You can see it happen a bit on discussion forums. It can be enjoyable and rewarding.
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pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
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Yes, I can see what you mean.
However, my comment was written in response to that post about 'lying propaganda'.
Your reactions to the public exposure of The Book of Abraham as a fraud have been to declare your faith in Smith.
How is it no-one backs up Smith's translation?
Did you read about the translation of Egyptian Hieroglyphs, as I suggested?
Janadele
Banned
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No Sideroxylon, I have no interest in wading through error and the works of Lucifer. Anti-Mormons are a peculiar people, they devote their life and resources to following Satan and attempting to discredit the Lord's Church through any means they can. Demonstrating outside the Conference Centre, disrupting LDS Pageants, distributing false and misleading movies and literature... are just some of their antics.
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Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
I am sure there are some ex-Mormons who are angry enough at being lied to all their lives that they are willing to devote some of their time to attempting to alert those still indoctrinated to the fact that they are being scammed. Most of the evidence against Mormonism, however, is the work of dedicated researchers (archeologists, geneticists, historians etc) who are probably mostly unaware that their findings contradict the doctrine of an obscure church. I don't see how their work can be dismissed as "anti-Mormon progaganda".
Mashuna
Ovis ex Machina
Quite. Scientific research disproves many religious claims, from many religions. The idea that science is anti-Mormon is plainly false. It's like me complaining that science is oppressing me because it says that I can't fly by flapping my arms. I can you know, it's a profound religious belief I've just come up with. STOP OPPRESSING ME SCIENCE!
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