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jsfisher said:
I'm inclined to jettison the two references from Abraham. The Book of Abraham is a known fraud. (The Book of Moses may be, too, but I don't have evidence of that.)

As for the other, I have a conflict that needs resolution. Satan is described as God's only begotten son. That doesn't agree with the Bible's account placing Jesus as His only begotten son.

So what gives? Are Jesus and Satan brothers? (Well, probably half-brothers, but we have no clue who Satan's mother might be.) Is this whole good v. evil thing just an unfortunate case of sibling rivalry that got out of control?
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In Mormon theology, yes, Lucifer and Jesus are brothers. IIRC, Jesus is firstborn, meaning he's everyone's elder brother. Your supposition that Satan/Jesus are involving all of us in a massive case of sibling rivalry isn't far off.

When everyone (us included) were looking forward to life here on earth, there was an argument between Jesus and Lucifer. Jesus wanted us to have free-will to follow God because we chose to. Lucifer wanted to control everything so that no one would be left out of eternal happiness and heaven. (Once again we see Lucifer as the nicer chap, though it's played as a bad thing b/c in his scenario we wouldn't have this "free will" of which they speak.) At some point there was a pre-mortal war and we all chose sides. (Incidentally I don't know if this bit of theology goes back to JS or not. He was rather keen on warfare as you can see in the BoM, so it wouldn't surprise me.)

Lucifer and his minions lose and are tossed off into Outer Darkness and mankind on earth begins in the Garden of Eden here in America.
 
Janadele said:
Time in the Garden of Eden was eternal time... "a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. "
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That's not eternal. It's a rather long time, but not eternal.
What does the hilited mean? Has something been lost in translation?
 
Genesis:

Christians have tarted up the Genesis story. It is a wonderful allegory. Non-human animals do not know that they will die. Non-human animals are not moral agents the way humans are. So, the tree of knowledge was something that the god(s) (Elohim) gave only to humans so that they would know of their mortality and they would no right from wrong, thus, becoming like the god(s) in his image.
 
jsfisher said:
Satan is described as God's only begotten son. That doesn't agree with the Bible's account placing Jesus as His only begotten son.
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I know of no reference where "Satan is described as God's only begotton son".
He is not. Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ has that honour, our Heavenly Father being the father of His mortal body as well as the father of His Spiritual body.
 
kerikiwi said:
That's not eternal. It's a rather long time, but not eternal.
What does the hilited mean? Has something been lost in translation?
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Time in the Garden of Eden was eternal time... "a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. "

Our earth time of a thousand years is but a day in the Lords time.
 
Janadele said:
I know of no reference where "Satan is described as God's only begotton son".
He is not. Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ has that honour, our Heavenly Father being the father of His mortal body as well as the father of His Spiritual body.
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begotten
 
be·got·ten
[bih-got-n] Show IPA
verb
a past participle of beget.

Related forms
self-be·got·ten, adjective
well-be·got·ten, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged
be·get
[bih-get] Show IPA
verb (used with object), be·got or ( Archaic ) be·gat; be·got·ten or be·got; be·get·ting.
1.
(especially of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).



How did god do this begetting?
 
jsfisher said:
I'm inclined to jettison the two references from Abraham. The Book of Abraham is a known fraud. (The Book of Moses may be, too, but I don't have evidence of that.)

As for the other, I have a conflict that needs resolution. Satan is described as God's only begotten son. That doesn't agree with the Bible's account placing Jesus as His only begotten son.

So what gives? Are Jesus and Satan brothers? (Well, probably half-brothers, but we have no clue who Satan's mother might be.) Is this whole good v. evil thing just an unfortunate case of sibling rivalry that got out of control?
Click to expand...


I think you may have misread that passage, as the language used is incredibly tortured. I saw it as being a three-way conversation, where Satan is Satan, God is God, and the Only Begotten is Jesus. Basically, God was saying, "Yo, what's the 411? Let's get this party started!", Satan was saying, "Pick me! Pick me!", and Jesus was saying, "Whatevs, call me when dinner is ready."
 
Abaddon said:
<many things pertaining to the creation fairy tale snipped>
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Some of the questions you have been asking suggests you don't have kids. I am not stating you don't, just that some of these are things that I recognize as a parent.

For instance, when my kids have done something I've told them not to do and I know it, I ask them anyway to give them a chance to 1) come clean and show me they won't try to deceive me about it, and 2) explain their actions.

And how many times have I pretended that the kids were "hiding" from me when I could see then. "Where are youuuuu? Come out, come out wherever you are?" Of course, I wasn't planning on inflicting mortality on them when I found them...usually just tickling, so that doesn't really apply to this situation. Maybe god was just being sarcastic. "Oh boy, Adam is hiding behind that bush and his feet are sticking out. He's got a lot to learn. Alright. 'ADAM, WHERE ART THOU?'"

On the tree of life, I just figured that it was something you had to eat from all of the time, not a one-time-and-you-are-immortal type thing. With that, it made sense that restricting them from the tree of life did condemn them to die. And satan did lie to them because he said they wouldn't. Yes, he also told them some truths. That's how the story goes, he mixes lies and truths together. No different than most people.

There are consequences, and in this fairy tale, god laid out the consequences for disobedience and still left the cookie jar within reach. As a parent, I do let my kids fail sometimes. It teaches them that there can be consequences for actions. I'm hoping they'll learn the lessons with small consequences before they learn it with large consequences. Like if you leave your quarter lying around, it might disappear. Then if my child loses the quarter, the lesson is learned early on and only lost a quarter instead of leaving a 20 dollar bill lying around and losing it.

So, at least this part of the fairy tale is actually consistent with what parents would do.
 
Janadele said:
I know of no reference where "Satan is described as God's only begotton son".
He is not. Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ has that honour, our Heavenly Father being the father of His mortal body as well as the father of His Spiritual body.
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Yeah, nice little story where god impregnates a woman without her consent. Most of us call that rape. But hey, if god does it then it is okay. God gets to do all sorts of evil things and gets away with it. Like when he killed innocent children in the flood. Then there was the time he killed the innocent first born of Egypt. He ordered Saul to kill the Amalekite children, including nursing babies. I wonder what the mothers thought as god was killing their children.
 
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Empress said:
... Lucifer and his minions lose and are tossed off into Outer Darkness and mankind on earth begins in the Garden of Eden here in America.
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It is not until the end of the Millennium that Lucifer and his followers will be cast to outer darkness. They are here on this earth as persons of Spirit without a mortal body.
 
Janadele said:
Everyone born to mortality on this earth is an actual Spiritual child of our Heavenly Father. Those who in mortality choose to follow Lucifer, who is known as "the father of all lies" are then classified among the wicked, and henceforth symbolically referred to as having Lucifer as their father.
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What about those who don't believe in any such entity as "Lucifer", such as atheists? In LDS theology, are those people still referred to as being wicked and the metaphorical offspring of Lucifer, or do they get a different definition and symbolic parentage?
 
Janadele said:
It is not until the end of the Millennium that Lucifer and his followers will be cast to outer darkness. They are here on this earth as persons of Spirit without a mortal body.
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And of course the major and minor themes of the Bible comport with The Hero's Journey. Check it out and see how many points of comparison you can find.
 
Agatha said:
What about those who don't believe in any such entity as "Lucifer", such as atheists? In LDS theology, are those people still referred to as being wicked and the metaphorical offspring of Lucifer, or do they get a different definition and symbolic parentage?
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The reference is to those who choose evil.
 
Janadele said:
Everyone born to mortality on this earth is an actual Spiritual child of our Heavenly Father. Those who in mortality choose to follow Lucifer, who is known as "the father of all lies" are then classified among the wicked, and henceforth symbolically referred to as having Lucifer as their father.
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Sideroxylon said:
What does it even mean for the creator of time-space to have any reckoning/sense of time?
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Sideroxylon said:
The teleological argument at least has an intuitive appeal.
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Slowvehicle said:
You like it, therefore it must be true?

How do you, personally, deal with the problem of infinite regression? Fiat? Special pleading? Hand-waving?
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Sideroxylon said:
I think you have mistaken me for someone making this argument.
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...looks to me as if you are making not only the "I like it, to it must be true" argument, but the "there had to be a creator" argument, which, inevitably, produces the problem of infinite regression...

Perhaps you could enlighten me.
 
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