LDS

[Craig4]

It is in reply to the previous post. Obviously.

How do you figure that?

 

[pakeha]

The Pearl of Great Price, which includes the writings of Abraham, is my favourite Scripture

Janadele, we can say with certainty the Book of Abraham was a crass scam and there is nothing there worthy of anyone's interest, except in as much as the text gives witness to Smith's willingness to deceive the ignorant.
Why believe in a lie?

That's the same book that refers to steel, barley and horses in the pre-European Americas, is it?

Alas, O Pharaoh, it is not.
It does, however, include the rather startling assertion that the word 'Egypt' is derived from the language of the Chaldeans.

 

[Akhenaten]

That's the same book that refers to steel, barley and horses in the pre-European Americas, is it?

Alas, O Pharaoh, it is not.
It does, however, include the rather startling assertion that the word 'Egypt' is derived from the language of the Chaldeans.

My thanks, wise Apteryx.

Clearly I need to do more work on keeping my fairytales straight.

 

[jsfisher]

Janadele, would palming off a scam as a legitimate translation of Egyptian hieroglyphs take one down the slippery slope?
We all know this is what Smith did with the Book of Abraham.

The lie is clear and public.
Why put your faith in a scam?

The Pearl of Great Price, which includes the writings of Abraham, is my favourite Scripture

Interesting bit of logic there, Janadele. The Book of Abraham, though a complete and utter lie, is your favorite complete and utter lie, so therefore you put your faith in it.

 

[pakeha]

Pharaoh would be advised to leave fairytales for those who believe in Nigerian princes and their financial ventures.
Or in 'independant' Ghanaian gold merchants.
Or 'orphans' in Red Cross refugee camps situated in Dakar.

 

[RoboTimbo]

It is in reply to the previous post. Obviously.

Baloney.

 

[Sideroxylon]

The Pearl of Great Price, which includes the writings of Abraham, is my favourite Scripture

They sound great.

Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization."[26]

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations"[27]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No. 3] into a king and Osiris into Abraham.”[28]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham#Controversy_and_Criticism

 

[Wolrab]

Originally Posted by Janadele
The Pearl of Great Price, which includes the writings of Abraham, is my favourite Scripture

They sound great.

Quote:
Egyptologist Dr. James H. Breasted of the University of Chicago noted:

"... these three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price’ depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith’s interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization."[26]

Dr. W.M. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote:

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations"[27]

Dr. A.H. Sayce, Oxford professor of Egyptology,

“It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith’s impudent fraud.... Smith has turned the goddess [Isis in Facsimile No. 3] into a king and Osiris into Abraham.”[28]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham#Controversy_and_Criticism

Other than that stuff he got wrong, he was spot on.

 

[Empress]

They sound great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham#Controversy_and_Criticism

This is exactly the sort of thing that astonishes me so much about religion. It meets incontrovertible proof of the falsity of the religion with blind faith and "your proof is wrong". While my family and I just agree to disagree about religion and generally don't discuss it, on one occasion when my mother did bring the subject up, I informed her that DNA studies conclusively proved what was perfectly clear to everyone except Mormons: American Indians are not descended from Middle Easterners. Her response: then the DNA is wrong.

I simply cannot fathom how someone can be shown conclusively that their view is incorrect, and they maintain the false view regardless. Yet people do it all the time. I would love to know what makes some of us completely incapable of the mental gymnastics that faith requires, when others do it so effortlessly.

 

[Pup]

I simply cannot fathom how someone can be shown conclusively that their view is incorrect, and they maintain the false view regardless. Yet people do it all the time. I would love to know what makes some of us completely incapable of the mental gymnastics that faith requires, when others do it so effortlessly.

I agree. And I'm also amazed that at some point, they did need to accept what someone told them, else they wouldn't believe in their religion. So it's not like they're so suspicious that they won't believe anything anyone says, nor are they completely gullible so that they believe whatever someone tells them.

At some point, they needed to be open to the religion they believe in, and then at that point, they locked down.

 

[RandFan]

The Pearl of Great Price, which includes the writings of Abraham, is my favourite Scripture

The Book of Abraham is a demonstrable fraud.

Decrypting the Mormon Book of Abraham

 

[RandFan]

I simply cannot fathom how someone can be shown conclusively that their view is incorrect, and they maintain the false view regardless. Yet people do it all the time. I would love to know what makes some of us completely incapable of the mental gymnastics that faith requires, when others do it so effortlessly.

People do not arrive at their beliefs via reason. If you want an indepth psychological explanation I highly recommend Johnathan Haidt's book The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided Over Politics and Religion.

 

[Sideroxylon]

The Book of Abraham is a demonstrable fraud.

Decrypting the Mormon Book of Abraham

A good read. Joseph Smith's story is an interesting one.

 

[skyrider44]

Let's try another scripture. This is from D&C Official Declaration 1, spoken by Wilford Woodruff, the prophet at the time:

Ezra Taft Benson said virtually the same thing. How have LDS prophets led members astray? Before you attempt an answer, you might wish to reflect on the fact that Pres. Harold B. Lee, who opposed granting the priesthood to all worthy male members, had--with Pres. Howard Hunter--the shortest term of all the prophets that preceded him (1972-1973).

Why is it that errors in judgment by scientists ("I can see a need for five computers worldwide at the most") are excused because science is self-correcting, but the same latitude is not granted to LDS prophets? Is it not true that BY's errors were eventually corrected by the prophets that followed him?

Your rejoinder will be that LDS prophets claim to receive communication and direction from God, and God is never wrong. True, God is never wrong, but those called to do His work in mortality are not infallible; i.e., they are, indeed, sometimes wrong.

 

[Craig4]

Ezra Taft Benson said virtually the same thing. How have LDS prophets led members astray? Before you attempt an answer, you might wish to reflect on the fact that Pres. Harold B. Lee, who opposed granting the priesthood to all worthy male members, had--with Pres. Howard Hunter--the shortest term of all the prophets that preceded him (1972-1973).

Why is it that errors in judgment by scientists ("I can see a need for five computers worldwide at the most") are excused because science is self-correcting, but the same latitude is not granted to LDS prophets? Is it not true that BY's errors were eventually corrected by the prophets that followed him?

snip.

Probably the answer is because the mechanisms in the Scientific Method to correct do not exist when you're just making it up.

 

[Empress]

But if your god is never wrong, but your prophet is, why doesn't your god smite your prophet for not doing what he's told as god's mouthpiece? If your prophets aren't speaking for god, why follow the prophet?

The LDS religion was supposed to have been brought forth into the world through JS b/c none of the churches on earth were correct. It seems rather silly for god to go to all the trouble of bringing forth the correct church, only to have half-witted prophets screw it up. It your god a moron?

 

[Sideroxylon]

Ezra Taft Benson said virtually the same thing. How have LDS prophets led members astray? Before you attempt an answer, you might wish to reflect on the fact that Pres. Harold B. Lee, who opposed granting the priesthood to all worthy male members, had--with Pres. Howard Hunter--the shortest term of all the prophets that preceded him (1972-1973).

Why is it that errors in judgment by scientists ("I can see a need for five computers worldwide at the most") are excused because science is self-correcting, but the same latitude is not granted to LDS prophets? Is it not true that BY's errors were eventually corrected by the prophets that followed him?

Your rejoinder will be that LDS prophets claim to receive communication and direction from God, and God is never wrong. True, God is never wrong, but those called to do His work in mortality are not infallible; i.e., they are, indeed, sometimes wrong.

Thomas J. Watson was a not a scientist.

Anyway, why is Gods telephone line so imperfect? Why when the message gets so awfully screwed up and racist does God not correct sooner than he apparently did?

 

[Craig4]

Better question, why would a god need a prophet? I really can't be bothered with middlemen. If a god wishes to speak to me I promise that the appointment will go to the top of the calendar app on my I-pad.

 

[ria_rokz]

This is exactly the sort of thing that astonishes me so much about religion. It meets incontrovertible proof of the falsity of the religion with blind faith and "your proof is wrong". While my family and I just agree to disagree about religion and generally don't discuss it, on one occasion when my mother did bring the subject up, I informed her that DNA studies conclusively proved what was perfectly clear to everyone except Mormons: American Indians are not descended from Middle Easterners. Her response: then the DNA is wrong.

I simply cannot fathom how someone can be shown conclusively that their view is incorrect, and they maintain the false view regardless. Yet people do it all the time. I would love to know what makes some of us completely incapable of the mental gymnastics that faith requires, when others do it so effortlessly.

Yes, I have had this happen too. I was showing my new coworker around and there was a 22000 year old wapiti skeleton. She said, I wonder how that came up with that? I said, probably carbon dating. She said, that's funny, they've disproven carbon dating. At that moment I knew I was dealing with a creationist and there was no point in discussing anything with her. If you can't dispute the evidence, dispute the methods. Crikey.

 

[RandFan]

Ezra Taft Benson said virtually the same thing. How have LDS prophets led members astray?

Brigham Young taught Blood Doctrine, Adam God Doctrine. He taught that blacks are lowly and uncouth and that they are cursed with the mark of Cain.

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind....Cain slew his brother.

If teaching false doctrines isn't leading the people astray then how do you define "lead astray"?

Before you attempt an answer, you might wish to reflect on the fact that Pres. Harold B. Lee, who opposed granting the priesthood to all worthy male members, had--with Pres. Howard Hunter--the shortest term of all the prophets that preceded him (1972-1973).

Odd that all this happened during the civil rights era. God only changes his mind when society applies pressure.

Why is it that errors in judgment by scientists ("I can see a need for five computers worldwide at the most") are excused because science is self-correcting, but the same latitude is not granted to LDS prophets?

Mormons claim that they can trust the Prophet because the Prophet speaks to god. Scientists don't claim divine revelation. Just the scientific method.

Is it not true that BY's errors were eventually corrected by the prophets that followed him?

If Mormon prophets are speaking with god then god is doing a horrible job. If what you are saying is true then god allowed his prophet to propagate racism and false doctrines that very well harmed people.

Your rejoinder will be that LDS prophets claim to receive communication and direction from God, and God is never wrong. True, God is never wrong, but those called to do His work in mortality are not infallible; i.e., they are, indeed, sometimes wrong.

I can understand this for like a day or two. Why did god never correct Brigham Young? If Young refused to listen to the council of god then why not the next prophet? Or the next prophet after that prophet?

Skyrider, understand this, your explanation does not have the ring of truth to anyone who is not a Mormon.