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Here's some scripture:



Do you believe that dark skin is a punishment from God? Do you think that it angers God when a "white" person has children with someone who has "a skin of blackness"? Do you believe that dark skinned people are idle, and full of mischief and subtlety?

That's a good question for our Mormon posters.
Mormon scripture is clear enough- do you believe this is true?


I realize the topic here is the LDS church, but it is worth putting this in context. The Methodists, for example, ended racial segregation in their church in 1967, twelve years before the LDS church. But while Brigham Young was saying he didn't want blacks to be equal with whites, Methodist preachers in the US south (and Presbyterian and Baptist ones too) were all preaching not just inequality but that race-based slavery itself was a God-ordained institution. .. .

Very true about the Methodists.
The thing is, the LDS foists 19th century scriptural hoaxes to bolster their views, while the Methodists don't.
That particular distinction puts LDS and its founder in a completely different league, IMO.


That's where I think the Protestants are winning the PR war. If a Protestant preacher advocated something immoral which was considered acceptable by society at large, we tend to cut him some slack for being a man of his times. Yet Protestant morals were pretty much dominating society, so such preachers were able to both create and follow social trends. ..

Actually, Pup, it's about the forged scriptures.
We'll always have to go back to the con game of passing Smith's 'translations' as holy script.
 
That for a short time, the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from worthy males of Negro descent, had no effect on those who were not worthy, and those who were would have accepted the Lord's decree and have been blessed for it. No issue.

[Church Lady voice] "Well! How conveeenyent!"[/Church Lady voice]

Now, about my questions, iterated and re-iterated above...
 
The thing is, the LDS foists 19th century scriptural hoaxes to bolster their views, while the Methodists don't.
That particular distinction puts LDS and its founder in a completely different league, IMO.

Well, the Methodists use 1st century scriptural hoaxes to bolster their views. I'm not sure if the difference of a few centuries is all that important. I'd rather see everyone just hold their views because they're their views, and not try to pass the buck onto a god.

Actually, Pup, it's about the forged scriptures.
We'll always have to go back to the con game of passing Smith's 'translations' as holy script.

So do you think the Bible is an actual record of historic events? I think it's just as much "forged" (i.e. made to sound like a historical record) as anything in the Book of Mormon, taking little bits of fact and spinning a good story out of it. The Bible does have the advantage of describing some events that supposedly occurred only a few decades before it was written, but even it also includes events thousands of years earlier, as if they're all equally factual.

Admittedly I'm a little puzzled how one can forge holy script, since "forged" implies there's real holy scripture from god and then there's the fake kind that imitates it--which of course is the Protestant/Catholic/Jewish mindset, but I don't believe there's any real kind to begin with.

Similarly, I think Protestant, Catholic and Jewish church officials are (and have been) running the same kind of "con game," no more and no less. That's why I'm a little hesitant to call it a con game, with the implication that there's a sharp dividing line between the con artists who disbelieve (admitting it openly and unequivably to themselves), and the victims who genuinely believe (at least on a conscious level, even if on a subconscious level they show evidence of reservations). I think it's more complicated than that, and there's more mixing and different shades of gray between the leaders and followers.
 
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Well, the Methodists use 1st century scriptural hoaxes to bolster their views. I'm not sure if the difference of a few centuries is all that important. I'd rather see everyone just hold their views because they're their views, and not try to pass the buck onto a god.



So do you think the Bible is an actual record of historic events? I think it's just as much "forged" (i.e. made to sound like a historical record) as anything in the Book of Mormon, taking little bits of fact and spinning a good story out of it. The Bible does have the advantage of describing some events that supposedly occurred only a few decades before it was written, but even it also includes events thousands of years earlier, as if they're all equally factual.

Admittedly I'm a little puzzled how one can forge holy script, since "forged" implies there's real holy scripture from god and then there's the fake kind that imitates it--which of course is the Protestant/Catholic/Jewish mindset, but I don't believe there's any real kind to begin with.

Similarly, I think Protestant, Catholic and Jewish church officials are (and have been) running the same kind of "con game," no more and no less. That's why I'm a little hesitant to call it a con game, with the implication that there's a sharp dividing line between the con artists who disbelieve (admitting it openly and unequivably to themselves), and the victims who genuinely believe (at least on a conscious level, even if on a subconscious level they show evidence of reservations). I think it's more complicated than that, and there's more mixing and different shades of gray between the leaders and followers.

I see your point about thinking for oneself, Pup and heartily agree with you.
No, I don't believe the bible is holy script.

And no, neither Christians nor Judaism are running the same sort of con game as the LDS.
Is there anything either Christianity or Judaism to compare to the cynical fraud that's the BOA?

Of course the vics believe the con, just as there those who believe they're on the point of receiving millions from the Nigerian prince variant of a 419 scam.

"Admittedly I'm a little puzzled how one can forge holy script, since "forged" implies there's real holy scripture from god and then there's the fake kind that imitates it"

Sorry for the confusion. What I meant to say was passing off a text written in the 19th century as 'holy script'.
I hope that reflects more accurately my utter contempt for Joseph Smith and his conscious fraud.
 
And no, neither Christians nor Judaism are running the same sort of con game as the LDS.
Is there anything either Christianity or Judaism to compare to the cynical fraud that's the BOA?

In this case, I think that non-Mormon Christians and Jews have to be given a little slack, because they've had so many more centuries. But I'll go for the low-hanging fruit anyway. Let's take the inquisition. You don't think there was anything cynical or fraudulent about that? I think it was a case of powerful people knowingly hijacking religion to terrorize the opposition into silence.

Of course the vics believe the con, just as there those who believe they're on the point of receiving millions from the Nigerian prince variant of a 419 scam.

That really is a good analogy. When the prize is big enough (heaven, power, etc.), people can delude themselves in surprising ways.

Sorry for the confusion. What I meant to say was passing off a text written in the 19th century as 'holy script'.
I hope that reflects more accurately my utter contempt for Joseph Smith and his conscious fraud.

See, that's what I don't get. Why is it any less of a "fraud" to pass off a 2,000 year old book as "holy script" than a brand new book? In both cases, it's equally not true. The evidence for both is exactly the same--pure faith alone. A talking snake or horses in America circa 600 B.C.--I don't buy either one.

Again, it's falling for the Protestant PR spin, that it's normal to claim a 2,000-year-old book is scripture but a conscious fraud to claim that anything newer is. Yet, at one time, the Bible was just as new as the Book of Mormon, and people were passing it off as holy scripture. A religion founded on a hoax is still founded on a hoax, 20 years later or 2000 years later.
 
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It was the Negro male... whether from America, the Congo, or Tim Buck Too. It was not the Maori, the Koori, the Samoan...
What are you addressing? What is the point of the above statement?

By the way, it's "Timbuktu".

What is offensive about Negro? It is the name of the race. As is Asian etc
It is a name applied to many ethnicities by a European culture that had a tragic history of exploitation of the worst sort imaginable. Whether you understand it or not, the term "negro" has a very negative connotation to many people.


But I'd still like to talk about the real issue: the racism displayed by the founders of Mormonism. What you you think about the claim made in the Book of Mormon that dark skin is a sign of a curse from God? Do you agree with this?
 
It was the Negro male... whether from America, the Congo, or Tim Buck Too. It was not the Maori, the Koori, the Samoan...
What is offensive about Negro? It is the name of the race. As is Asian etc

You sound as if you've taken a time machine trip from 150 years ago. Are you really so disconnected from present reality?
 
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There is no other word one can use in this context, as of all worthy males it was only the Negro whom the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from, for a short time and for His own reasons. They still received the blessings of the Priesthood, but without the responsibility... as is the situation also for women.
 
It was the Negro male... whether from America, the Congo, or Tim Buck Too. It was not the Maori, the Koori, the Samoan...
What is offensive about Negro? It is the name of the race. As is Asian etc

It is a bucket term used to encompass a diverse group of people based only on the colour of their skin. It has zero utility in medicine, biology or any understanding of our world. Its historic utility has been to single out people for discrimination and exploitation while attributing various negative traits to justify this behavior.
 
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There is no other word one can use in this context, as of all worthy males it was only the Negro whom the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from, for a short time and for His own reasons. They still received the blessings of the Priesthood, but without the responsibility... as is the situation also for women.

Yeah, so your god was a bigot and a racist until he changed his mind, at least with regards to blacks (please stop using the very unpleasant term "Negroes"--we aren't in the 1960s, let alone the century earlier you appear to be living in).
 
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There is no other word one can use in this context, as of all worthy males it was only the Negro whom the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from, for a short time and for His own reasons. They still received the blessings of the Priesthood, but without the responsibility... as is the situation also for women.

Your lord works in mysterious ways. Ways that also mysteriously (or not) parallel human ignorance on the reality and value of concepts like negro and race as well as enlightened concepts like universal human rights.
 
There is no other word one can use in this context, as of all worthy males it was only the Negro whom the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from, for a short time and for His own reasons. They still received the blessings of the Priesthood, but without the responsibility... as is the situation also for women.
Talk about condescending and patronizing. Isn't it rather convenient to justify your evil behavior on god?

One Tin Soldier said:
Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
Go ahead and cheat a friend.
Do it in the name of Heaven,
You can justify it in the end.

No need for personal responsibility when you can can use god as your excuse.
 
Yeah, so your god was a bigot and a racist until he changed his mind, at least with regards to blacks (please stop using the very unpleasant term "Negroes"--we aren't in the 1960s).
It is not, as you say, "black" males to whom we are refering, therefore it is obviously not the correct word to use .
 
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The Lord did not withhold the responsibility of His Priesthood from, as you say, "black" males.
Hmmm...

Brigham Young said:
Cain slew his brother. . . and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.

Joseph Fielding Smith said:
"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less."

Brigham Young said:
"Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a sin of blackness ? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain,
 
There is no other word one can use in this context, as of all worthy males it was only the Negro whom the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from, for a short time and for His own reasons. They still received the blessings of the Priesthood, but without the responsibility... as is the situation also for women.

Can you please explain exactly what you mean by the "Negro race"? You've said referring to "blacks" is erroneous, so can you clarify your definition? How are "Negroes" different from dark-skinned people?
 
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Can you please explain exactly what you mean by the "Negro race"? You've said referring to "blacks" is erroneous, so can you clarify your definition? How are "Negroes" different from dark-skinned people?
Skin colour does not define the Negro race.

There is no other word one can use in this context, as of all worthy males it was only the Negro whom the Lord withheld the responsibility of His Priesthood from, for a short time and for His own reasons. They still received the blessings of the Priesthood, but without the responsibility... as is the situation also for women.
 
What difference does it make what a Prophet of God proclaims, or what is decreed by Eternal Law, to those who have no concept, understanding or belief... it is really none of their concern nor business.

Then seriously, Why are you here?

Anyhoo, I think the quote would have made more sense like this:

What difference does it make what a Prophet of God proclaims, or what is decreed by Eternal Law?
 
Skin colour does not define the Negro race.
The Mormon Church sure fixates on skin color.

Pearl of Great Price said:
“For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the bareness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people..."

Prophet John Taylor said:
“For instance, the descendants of Cain cannot cast off their skin of blackness , at once, and immediately, although every should of them should repent.... Cain and his posterity must wear the mark which God put upon them; and his white friends may wash the race of Cain with fuller’s soap every day, they cannot wash away God’s mark.”
 
Skin colour does not define the Negro race.

So you are somehow attempting to escape the racist connotations of the word by saying that Negro does not mean black. What defines the "Negro race"?
 
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