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Is it possible for you to tell us your own understanding of what it is you believe?
The best religions have all the answers and relieve a person of the burden of thought. Understanding is superfluous.

Why do you keep saying this?
One could search this forum and alas find fairly abundant evidence that letting others do your religious thinking for you leads eventually to a general atrophy in the art. Asking for clarity and accuracy here borders on cruelty, like asking a dog why it barks at the moon.
 
I've heard many jokes and some dirision about "Magic Underware," but I've never heard the LDS doctrine behind it.

Mormon's, what's the scoop?
 
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I've heard many jokes and some dirision about "Magic Underware," but I've never heard the LDS doctrine behind it.

Mormon's, what's the scoop?

That was actually covered a little (no pun intended) in these posts:

Janadele's answer in her own words:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8878698&postcount=337

An example of how some members themselves have imbued them with mythological protective powers beyond official church doctrine:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8879410&postcount=389

An example of Mormons not wearing garments ;) :
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8879506&postcount=400

This probably sums up the official church stance pretty well, from lds.org:

"This garment, worn day and night, serves three important purposes: it is a reminder of the sacred covenants made with the Lord in His holy house, a protective covering for the body, and a symbol of the modesty of dress and living that should characterize the lives of all the humble followers of Christ."

I ran this post by Cat Tale briefly, since she's doing other stuff on her computer and isn't on the forum right now, and she said yeah, that's pretty much what she'd say.
 
The best religions have all the answers and relieve a person of the burden of thought. Understanding is superfluous.

One could search this forum and alas find fairly abundant evidence that letting others do your religious thinking for you leads eventually to a general atrophy in the art. Asking for clarity and accuracy here borders on cruelty, like asking a dog why it barks at the moon.

Meh, no pain no gain. I see no cruelty in inflicting a personal crisis on someone that might ultimately save them from being the imprisoned by superstition and mysticism.
 
Personal attacks, bickering, and nonsense posts are off topic. Posters not interested in the teachings and Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should take their shenanigans to another thread in another section of the Forum.

The JREF isn't an adjunct of the Mormon church so your post is wrong.
 
:) These are the words of my favourite Hymn.

"O My Father,” Hymns of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, no. 292

O my Father, Thou that dwellest
In the high and glorious place,
When shall I regain Thy presence
And again behold Thy face?
In Thy holy habitation,
Did my Spirit once reside?
In my first primeval childhood
Was I nurtured near Thy side?

...

Is that the way you envision yourself?
 
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Personal attacks, bickering, and nonsense posts are off topic. Posters not interested in the teachings and Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should take their shenanigans to another thread in another section of the Forum.
This is a skeptics forum. It's purpose is not for preaching. It's for discussion. Your ideas are not immune from criticism.
 
Personal attacks, bickering, and nonsense posts are off topic. Posters not interested in the teachings and Doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should take their shenanigans to another thread in another section of the Forum.

Wrong. This is a skeptic's forum, not a branch of your cult.
 
Meh, no pain no gain. I see no cruelty in inflicting a personal crisis on someone that might ultimately save them from being the imprisoned by superstition and mysticism.

Likewise. I'd sooner resect the tumor of superstition and hear a loud "ouch!" than sit there and watch someone succumb to necrosis of the rational faculties.
 
I have the sneaky suspicion that Janadele is genuinely confused over the reaction she has received here. She probably meant this thread to talk about the wonder and the absolute truth of the LDS church so that we would all see the error of our ways, and go convert.

I see this in her responses to questions, and the utter lack of any personal opinion. It's all true to her, so of course she responds with LDS doctrine. Its what she views as the complete truth, and thus cannot actually express her own opinion.
 
Myriad:
Elder Parley P. Pratt wrote in the Millennial Star, in 1841: " We are nowhere to understand that all the stars will fall or even many of them: but only 'as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.' The stars which will fall to the earth, are fragments, which have been broken off from the earth from time to time, in the mighty convulsions of nature. Some in the days of Enoch, some perhaps in the days of Peleg, some with the ten tribes, and some at the crucifixion of the Messiah. These must all be restored again at the 'times of restitution of all things.' This will restore the ten tribes of Israel; and also bring again Zion, even Enoch's city... When these fragments, (some of which are vastly larger than the present earth) are brought back and joined to this earth, it will cause a convulsion of all nature; the graves of the Saints will be opened, and rise from the dead; while the mountains will flow down, the valleys rise, the sea retire to its own place, the islands and continents will be removed, and earth be rolled together as a scroll. The earth will be many times larger than it is now. 'If I have told you of earthly things and ye believe not; what would you think if you were to be told of heavenly things.'"

Elder Orson Pratt: "The Prophet Joseph once in my hearing advanced his opinion that the Ten Tribes were separated from the Earth; or a portion of the Earth was by a miracle broken off, and that the Ten Tribes were taken away with it, and that in the latter days it would be restored to the Earth or be let down in the Polar regions."


Janadele, thank you for answering. For the record, I have no objection to your citing passages you agree with in lieu of explanations in your own words, as long as the passages are properly attributed. To continue with the discussion, it is necessary for me to assume that you do in fact agree with the passages you cite unless you state otherwise, so I do ask that wherever this is not the case, you make that clear.

I also appreciate that you took some time to find an answer. Patience is a virtue, and there is no need for hurry.

The question I have to follow up with is, what does it mean when an Elder and Apostle of the Church of LDS (specifically, Elder Parley Pratt), publishes text in a periodical (specifically, the Millennial Star)? Are such writings considered to have any divine authority? Or are they the interpretations and opinions of the writer himself?

The reason I ask is that the passage disagrees with what we have been able to observe of Creation since Pratt's time. No fragments are broken off from the Earth and launched permanently into the sky as a result of convulsions of nature. We've observed and studied the results of earthquakes, tornados, volcanos, wildfires, and explosions. Any solid material these convulsions launch into the air quickly falls back to earth. Liquid material either falls back to earth or evaporates in the air.

Besides our own rockets, the only phenomenon that has a chance to launch any debris from earth into orbit or beyond is a large asteroid impact. But the nature of the earth, including its mass and atmosphere, makes even that unlikely, except in an impact large enough to destroy all land life across entire continents. No such impacts are recounted in the Bible. (If Sodom and Gomorrah's destruction was from asteroid impacts, those must have been much smaller impacts than needed to launch pieces of the earth into orbit, or else the rest of the known world at the time would have been destroyed too.)

We have also searched the heavens to find what is actually up there. We have seen numerous planets, moons, comets, and asteroids, including many that are much smaller than the earth. We also know that they are made of different mixes of materials than the materials that make up the earth. If there were broken off pieces of the earth vastly larger than the earth itself anywhere in the solar system, we'd be able to see them. Even if they were dark or hidden, they would have gravitational effects on the bodies we do see, and we could find them that way. So for such pieces to exist, God would have to have moved them great distances outside the Solar System, and will have to move them back to return them to earth. In that case, their being former pieces of the earth becomes irrelevant; God could more easily send moons, asteroids, comets, and other materials to earth instead.

And in any case, the effect of doing so, of returning even one earth-sized mass to the earth's surface, no matter how gently, would be to melt the surfaces of both bodies completely, destroying all life. If that problem were miraculously circumvented, the new much larger earth would have much greater surface gravity, and we would be unable to move around well enough to survive.

And even if another miracle makes that problem go away too, the original question remains unanswered: why do the passages you quoted call these broken off and returned pieces of earth stars? That is not what stars are.

In short, Parley Pratt's explanation is shown to be false when we compare it to the actual Creation before us. The only way to make it seem possibly true is to ignore God's Creation in favor of that one man's opinion, and even that opinion still contradicts scripture as well, by claiming "stars" doesn't mean stars.

I believe doing that is not only erroneous, it's sinful. We should be humbled by Creation, not, in our eagerness to explain the mysteries of scripture and our pride in thinking ourselves able to do so, disregarding Creation in favor of stories made up by people like Paley.

How much data is in the Bible and the Book of Mormon combined? It takes a few megabytes of computer memory to contain both in full. (The BoM from the LDS site in PDF format is 9 megabytes, but that includes a lot of arbitrary formatting that pads out the file size considerably. The actual text is a fraction of that.) Fifty megabytes is easily enough to contain all the scriptures of LDS.

Fifty megabytes, though, is not nearly enough to contain a complete description of the structure and workings of a single pine needle, or a single orange seed, or a single bacterium parasitizing a single mite on a single feather of a single bird. Creation is a vastly greater communication from God than scripture is. And unlike scripture, Creation is not subject to the limits or errors of human language.

It is Creation itself (not "science" which is only the act of looking at Creation with care) that told us that the earth orbits around the sun. It is Creation itself that told us that the stars are not held up by a transparent dome in the sky. It is Creation itself that told us the earth is billions of years old. It is Creation itself that told us life on earth has evolved, and in that evolving, formed ourselves.

If someone gave you a marvelous and infinitely precious gift, you would not cherish the wrapping paper it was wrapped in, and ignore the gift itself. That's what you're doing, though, when you hold men's interpretations of scripture as a higher authority than the real universe around us, which is Creation itself.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
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Birds of a feather flock together.

Hi, Janadele.
I'm puzzled by this answer of yours.
What exactly do you mean?

It can be no surprise to any Mormon that in this forum simply saying 'I believe and it makes me happy' is no basis for a discussion of the LDS, especially if the discussion revolves around texts which are patently NOT divinely inspired.
 
To be fair, it's not entirely impossible to have bits of the Earth broken off and flung into space. That's how the piece of Mars got to Antarctica, after all. They just generally are really teeny Earth bits, the larger ones are pulled back harder.
 
President Wilford Woodruff writes in his 1859 Journal: "all that God has said with regard to the ten tribes of Israel, strange as it may appear, will come to pass. They will, as has been said concerning them, smite the rock, and the mountains of ice will flow before them, and a great highway will be cast up, and their enemies will become a prey to them; and their records, and their choice treasures they will bring with them to Zion. These things are as true as God lives." He also cites the following statements from Brigham Young in regard to the "lost tribes" : "The nations will have nothing to do with the preparing of the way for their return. But when the time has come for their return, the Lord will do the work. They are on a portion of earth separated from this globe in the north which cannot be seen from this earth... the ten tribes of Israel are on a portion of the earth--a portion separated from the main land."
See Doctrine and Covenants 133:23-31
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/133?lang=eng
 
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