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At the end of the day, failure to address substantive arguments demonstrates the unreasonableness of blind faith. Cat Tale admirably demonstrates that one can have faith and honestly comment to the best of one's ability.

Passion for one's belief is not sufficient in the face of reason and facts. As I've said on more than one occasion, truth is it's own testimony. I don't have to be passionate about gravity to be able to demonstrate that it is a fact. I do not fear losing my belief in gravity because my belief is A.) Justifiable. B.) My belief is provisional. I accept it only to the extent that the evidence justifies it.

To quote Tim Minchin: "Science adjusts it's beliefs based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
 
RandFan said:
At the end of the day, failure to address substantive arguments demonstrates the unreasonableness of blind faith. Cat Tale admirably demonstrates that one can have faith and honestly comment to the best of one's ability.
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Yeah, I will give that an extra hoorah. Cat Tale has been a most eloquent poster, and happily engages in discussion, and should be lauded for it.
 
Janadele said:
After having been driven so many times from their homes and possessions, violated as they had been by fiends from hell, and now having to endure the unbelievable hardships of relocating to the harsh, freezing isolated wilderness of Mountain Meadow...it was understandable that these pioneer settlers would no longer "turn the other cheek" when the news came to them of this group, who were boasting of the atrocities they intended to commit on the "Mormons" and of their participation in the violence against LDS in both Missouri and Illinois, and that they had participated in the killing of Parley P. Pratt in Arkansas, poisoned a spring, and were threatened to destroy LDS settlements.
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This is what is called "rationalizing". Those killed were just settlers trying to reach their new home. There is no historical evidence that these setters set out on their long journey to harm Mormons. This ad hoc rationalization is just as disgusting as the rationale for the murder and persecution of the saints.

This heinous act was not justified by any reasonable standard. At the end of the day it was wholesale slaughter. Any fool can find a reason to murder. The excuses are pathetic and speak poorly for the church. Those who are not Mormon easily see the obfuscation and dissembling.
 
Janadele said:
I was priviliged to have a discussion with a direct descendant of one of the local leaders, interesting that the family still reside in the area.
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...and your citation for the "International Internet Laws" that you claim are being violated?

...and your opinion of the approximate date that "Eve" and "Adam" lived?

...and your opinion of the approximate date of the "fludde"?
 
Is it me, or does the LDS story sound like it was just pulled out of a hat?

Oh, wait...
 
Myriad said:
So, Janadele, what do you think that part of the passage is really telling us?

1. That at the foretold time, God will miraculously move entire stars hundreds of trillions of miles, while also shrinking them to a tiny fraction of their former size and mass (otherwise even one of them falling down to earth would vaporize the earth and make all the subsequent foretold events and judgments moot), while also imbuing them with sentience so that they can be angry, all so that they can fall to earth like figs from a tree.

2. That at the foretold time, meteors will fall in a manner similar to the normal way that meteors do, but God called them stars because His prophets had no separate word for "meteor," and so allowed the fall of "stars of heaven" (often translated as "stars of the sky") to be recorded as scripture (in Revelation) even though in His omniscience he must be aware that most readers will misinterpret that scripture as saying the actual familiar stars routinely visible in the night sky will fall down, rather than the normally invisible space debris that meteors actually are

3. That at the foretold time, some other kind of stars ("stars of heaven") that we're unaware of at present, not meteors or the visible astronomical stars light years away, will fall down. And as in #2, God permitted "stars" to be written down despite knowing that it would be misinterpreted.

This is not a rhetorical question; I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on this.
Respectfully,
Myriad
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Myriad:
Elder Parley P. Pratt wrote in the Millennial Star, in 1841: " We are nowhere to understand that all the stars will fall or even many of them: but only 'as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.' The stars which will fall to the earth, are fragments, which have been broken off from the earth from time to time, in the mighty convulsions of nature. Some in the days of Enoch, some perhaps in the days of Peleg, some with the ten tribes, and some at the crucifixion of the Messiah. These must all be restored again at the 'times of restitution of all things.' This will restore the ten tribes of Israel; and also bring again Zion, even Enoch's city... When these fragments, (some of which are vastly larger than the present earth) are brought back and joined to this earth, it will cause a convulsion of all nature; the graves of the Saints will be opened, and rise from the dead; while the mountains will flow down, the valleys rise, the sea retire to its own place, the islands and continents will be removed, and earth be rolled together as a scroll. The earth will be many times larger than it is now. 'If I have told you of earthly things and ye believe not; what would you think if you were to be told of heavenly things.'"

Elder Orson Pratt: "The Prophet Joseph once in my hearing advanced his opinion that the Ten Tribes were separated from the Earth; or a portion of the Earth was by a miracle broken off, and that the Ten Tribes were taken away with it, and that in the latter days it would be restored to the Earth or be let down in the Polar regions."
 
lionking said:
I wonder how this hollow earth stuff fits in with LDS teaching?
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SezMe said:
Me too. Janadele, please speak to this.
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Though there is much yet to be revealed, much also has been revealed.
Breach of rule 4 removed. Do not copy large amounts of material from elsewhere.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Cuddles
 
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Janadele said:
Though there is much yet to be revealed, much also has been revealed.
Edited by Cuddles: 
Edited quote of moderated content.
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Is it possible for you to tell us your own understanding of what it is you believe?
 
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Let's compare.

Here is a paragraph of text presented by Janadele as her own work:

Janadele said:
Recorded elsewhere in President Woodruff's journal is another statement from Brigham Young regarding the lost tribes. It is a response President Young gave when, in 1859, he was asked if the explorations which were then taking place in Northern Canada would eventually lead to the discovery of the lost ten tribes, and ultimately, their return. To this, he replied: "The nations will have nothing to do with the preparing of the way for their return. But when the time has come for their return, the Lord will do the work. They are on a portion of earth separated from this globe in the north which cannot be seen from this earth."Wilford Woodruff Journals 1859.President Wilford Woodruff recorded in his journal an account from Brigham Young. "The leaders upon their return from Provo made a visit to Logan. Here, President Young is quoted as saying the ten tribes of Israel are on a portion of the earth--a portion separated from the main land."
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Compare and contrast that very text to text found at this link:

President Wilford Woodruff recorded in his journal an account from Brigham Young. "The leaders upon their return from Provo made a visit to Logan. Here, President Young is quoted as saying the ten tribes of Israel are on a portion of the earth--a portion separated from the main land."55

Recorded elsewhere in President Woodruff's journal is another statement from Brigham Young regarding the lost tribes. It is a response President Young gave when, in 1859, he was asked if the explorations which were then taking place in Northern Canada would eventually lead to the discovery of the lost ten tribes, and ultimately, their return. To this, he replied: "The nations will have nothing to do with the preparing of the way for their return. But when the time has come for their return, the Lord will do the work. They are on a portion of earth separated from this globe in the north which cannot be seen from this earth."
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Lying and cheating for Jesus is ok? Aren't you the least bit ashamed for your despicable behavior, Janadele?



ETA: I missed this part at the link I provided: "This is like drinking from a fire hose.... I plagiarized off of a post on LDSFF". At least the blogger admits to his sins.
 
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kerikiwi said:
Is it possible for you to tell us your own understanding of what it is you believe?
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I doubt that it is possible. Some people are so brainwashed or controlled by their masters that they can no longer think at all. See The Stepford Wives.

Norm
 
Perhaps Janadele is still suffering from the burning bosom, which would tend to make thinking difficult. Bosoms are very sensitive and pain in them tends to take your mind off other things.
 
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