LDS

[dafydd]

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/01/t...-babel?lang=eng&query="+baptism+of+the+earth"

"Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a Prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s Prophets. Latter-day Prophets teach that the Flood or the total immersion of the earth in water represents the earth’s required baptism. Elder John A.Widtsoe of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “Latter-day Saints look upon the earth as a living organism, one which is gloriously filling ‘the measure of its creation.’ They look upon the flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life. This has been repeatedly taught by the leaders of the Church. The deluge was an immersion of the earth in water.” He writes that the removal of earth’s wicked inhabitants in the Flood represents that which occurs in our own baptism for the remission of sins."

Elder John A.Widtsoe is talking through his backside. There was no flood. You are not in a Mormon Church, you are preaching at people who are capable of rational thought.

 

[Wolrab]

The Pearl of Great Price is LDS Scripture and Doctrine and contains many enlightening truths which expand on our understanding of Bible principles.
In the The Book of Abraham, Chapters 3 and 5, we read:

... the prophet of Amonrasonter, prophet [?] of Min Bull-of-his-Mother, prophet [?] of Khons the Governor... Hor, justified, son of the holder of the same titles, master of secrets, and purifier of the gods Osorwer, justified [?]... Tikhebyt, justified. May your ba live among them, and may you be buried in the West...May you give him a good, splendid burial on the West of Thebes just like ...[81]

and

this great pool of Khonsu [Osiris Hor, justified], born of Taykhebyt, a man likewise. After (his) two arms are [fast]ened to his breast, one wraps the Book of Breathings, which is with writing both inside and outside of it, with royal linen, it being placed (at) his left arm near his heart, this having been done at his wrapping and outside it. If this book be recited for him, then he will breathe like the soul[s of the gods] for ever and ever.[82]

 

[tsig]

It has really become stepford wives in here. A well programmed bot could do better.

That's one of the problems with any forum as the thread becomes longer and the questions become sharper the more articulate and reasonable believers drop out leaving only the believebots who can do nothing more than regurgitate what has been shoved down their throats by their ministers.

 

[dlorde]

The story of Noah's Ark is a oral legend. It's not possible. That's been demonstrated many times.

Yes, but it's a wonderfully educational story because it's impossible in so many different ways.

And the even more extraordinary fact that many Christians believe that no miracles were involved almost makes one think the story of Noah was included as a deliberate hint that the whole sorry bible business was an elaborate hoax by some obsessives with violent fantasies...

 

[Myriad]

The date of the future advent of Christ has never been revealed to man. To the inquiring Apostles who laboured with the Master, He said: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of heaven, but my Father only." In the present age, a similar declaration has been made by the Father: "I, the Lord God, have spoken it, but the hour and the day no man knoweth, neither the Angels in heaven, nor shall they know until He comes." He says to His Elders: Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature; and after your testimony cometh wrath and indignation upon the people if this message is rejected; God will bring judgments upon the world until He has humbled the people to a state where they will be glad to receive it. The judgments of God shall stalk through the earth, decimating the human race, before the great day of the Lord shall come. Wars and rumours of wars, famine and pestilence, the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea, heaving themselves beyond their bounds. The earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground, and shall not be able to stand. and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light, and the moon shall be bathed in blood, and the stars shall become exceeding angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig tree. All things shall be in commotion; and surely, men's hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people. Fearful indeed will it be to individuals, families, and nations, who have so far sunk into sin as to have forfeited their claim to mercy. The time is not that of the final judgment--when the whole race of mankind shall stand in the resurrected state before the bar of God--nevertheless it shall be a time of unprecedented blessing unto the righteous, and of condemnation and vengeance upon the wicked.

Nice poetry, albeit cribbed from Isaiah and Revelation.

However, we know that stars are enormous gravitationally bound spheres of plasma, each much larger than the earth and many light years away. So they cannot possibly fall down to the ground (or to anyplace) like figs falling off a tree. It is also unlikely that they possess senses, intelligence, or emotions, in which case they cannot actually become angry, nor does it make sense for them to become angry at the behavior of (from their point of view) a few traces of carbon on a small planet light years away.

To me, it seems likely that the author(s) of that passage were thinking of meteors, which do fall down (sometimes even to the ground), and which were often believed by primitive people to be falling stars. However, meteors are not stars. And I think we can agree that God, who created both, certainly understands the difference!

So, Janadele, what do you think that part of the passage is really telling us?

1. That at the foretold time, God will miraculously move entire stars hundreds of trillions of miles, while also shrinking them to a tiny fraction of their former size and mass (otherwise even one of them falling down to earth would vaporize the earth and make all the subsequent foretold events and judgments moot), while also imbuing them with sentience so that they can be angry, all so that they can fall to earth like figs from a tree.

2. That at the foretold time, meteors will fall in a manner similar to the normal way that meteors do, but God called them stars because His prophets had no separate word for "meteor," and so allowed the fall of "stars of heaven" (often translated as "stars of the sky") to be recorded as scripture (in Revelation) even though in His omniscience he must be aware that most readers will misinterpret that scripture as saying the actual familiar stars routinely visible in the night sky will fall down, rather than the normally invisible space debris that meteors actually are

3. That at the foretold time, some other kind of stars ("stars of heaven") that we're unaware of at present, not meteors or the visible astronomical stars light years away, will fall down. And as in #2, God permitted "stars" to be written down despite knowing that it would be misinterpreted.

4. Every astronomer since the Middle Ages is wrong or lying, and the stars actually are relatively small lights attached to a transparent dome above the earth as Genesis says, and these will get angry and fall down at the foretold time, just as the passage literally states.

5. Some other explanation of your own (please fill in).

This is not a rhetorical question; I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts on this.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[Cat Tale]

It is perfectly clear what I believe, and that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ as per the Doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... which is the topic of this thread, not the Gospel of Janadele.

Personally, I think Janadele doesn't understand that on a skeptics board people expect people to think about sources, and give their interpretation of those sources, rather than just merely quote them as fact. The problem is, that people can quote anything, it doesn't mean they believe it. I can say the sky's blood red, but that doesn't mean I believe it, actually it's cappucino frost, same color as my car!

The reason that I haven't said what specific spiritual truths I find in the BOM is because it's been too long since I've read it cover to cover. I was inactive for a number of years (as I believe I already said), and so I wasn't reading it.

That being said, I have read the Book of Mormom cover to cover at least four maybe five times. I've been through Book of Mormon institute [college age] class, served a mission, taught seminary [high school age], Sunday School... all for which reading the book was necessary to be able to teach and/or answer questions. Last year, our SS course of study was the Book of Mormon (cycled around, not my class), and I read quite a bit of it, but admittedly not cover to cover. I still remember some of the stories, but I don't remember who said what, and I can't call specific stories to mind, but when I hear them I remember them.

 

[tsig]

You mean blood atonement as in the killing of apostates, right?

I think the evidence is pretty solid that they supported blood atonement, in the sense of executing convicted criminals in a way that spilled their blood (firing squad rather than hanging, for example).

The problem is that the evidence I've seen (and admittedly I haven't looked into it a whole lot, so there's lots out there that I haven't seen) tends to be the murderers themselves saying the order came from higher up, but the higher ups themselves denying it. Of course both sides would have an incentive to lie to pass the responsibility, depending what the actual truth was.

What's the best example of evidence, that shows Brigham Young or Joseph Smith specifically ordering a murder?



I always figured it was because the Book of Mormon was supposed to sound like the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is the same way.

Do you think that Mormons were significantly more violent than Protestants at the same time and place?

Edited to add: I think that both were similar, with the violence gradually escalating from things like mobs and tar & feathering, to frontier-style murders, as the Mormons moved toward the more-violent frontier, so both sides were using their religion (or hatred of another religion) to justify actions that were actually more affected by the larger cultural norms around them.

As I said I'm not concerned about blood atonement because if there was a god and he did have prophets I'd see no problem for the prophet ordering the death of anybody.

I don't think they were any more violent but when you move into a neighborhood and start telling all your neighbors that their land rightfully belongs to you because god gave it to you then you're bound to have problems.

 

[RandFan]

Yes, but it's a wonderfully educational story because it's impossible in so many different ways.

And the even more extraordinary fact that many Christians believe that no miracles were involved almost makes one think the story of Noah was included as a deliberate hint that the whole sorry bible business was an elaborate hoax by some obsessives with violent fantasies...

Yes. And it does one more thing. It makes god out to be a moral monster. If this god existed I could not worship it. I could only condemn it. Might does not make right.

"god is not good": teaching god Ethics - YouTube

Akiba: Oh, at the beginning when god repented for making human beings and flooded the Earth, why? What had they done? What could they have done to deserve annihilation? What could they have done to deserve such whole sale slaughter? What could they have done that was so bad?

Akiba:When he asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, Abraham should have said "no". We should have taught god the justice that was in our hearts.

 

[tsig]

and

With the BoA JS demonstrated not only his gift of translation but also the miracle of the multiplication of the words and phrases.

 

[Janadele]

So when you say that Rufus T Firefly wrote a book about something or other, with no further comment, it's hardly surprising if people would like clarification on whether you actually agree.

Previously in this thread I have given the qualifications of James E. Talmage and of the book Jesus The Christ, which is approved and published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... and have made it perfectly that I agree with LDS teachings and Doctrines, otherwise I would not be a member. I am not in an LDS Community where perhaps some members may belong for the advantages of membership or for social activity. Outside of my own family and a few others I have little contact with LDS members.

 

[RandFan]

Previously in this thread I have given the qualifications of James E. Talmage and of the book Jesus The Christ, which is approved and published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... and have made it perfectly that I agree with LDS teachings and Doctrines, otherwise I would not be a member. I am not in an LDS Community where perhaps some members may belong for the advantages of membership or for social activity. Outside of my own family and a few others I have little contact with LDS members.

Which is all meaningless and a waste of your time. Actually it's worse than meaningless. It's fatuous and brain dead. But go right on preaching. It's great grist for the mill.

 

[Slowvehicle]

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/01/t...-babel?lang=eng&query="+baptism+of+the+earth"

"Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a Prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s Prophets. Latter-day Prophets teach that the Flood or the total immersion of the earth in water represents the earth’s required baptism. Elder John A.Widtsoe of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “Latter-day Saints look upon the earth as a living organism, one which is gloriously filling ‘the measure of its creation.’ They look upon the flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life. This has been repeatedly taught by the leaders of the Church. The deluge was an immersion of the earth in water.” He writes that the removal of earth’s wicked inhabitants in the Flood represents that which occurs in our own baptism for the remission of sins."

Of course I believe that Adam and Eve were actual flesh and blood persons... and that they were the first of humankind on this earth. As per my previous post: in Jesus The Christ by James E Talmage, Adam is referred to as the Patriach of the race, and Eve as the Mother of the race, and both are referred to as our first parents.

As I said before, I could have done without the "of course"...but thanks.

However, I really would appreciate it if you would tell me when you believe "Adam" and "Eve" lived, roughly?

And, while you are at it, would you mind telling me when you believe the global flood happened?

Thanks!

 

[carlitos]

Previously in this thread I have given the qualifications of James E. Talmage and of the book Jesus The Christ, which is approved and published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... and have made it perfectly that I agree with LDS teachings and Doctrines, otherwise I would not be a member. I am not in an LDS Community where perhaps some members may belong for the advantages of membership or for social activity. Outside of my own family and a few others I have little contact with LDS members.

Others have said this more eloquently but you don't seem to get it.

Saying "I only believe what the church tells me to believe" is akin to shouting "I am a brainwashed idiot" in this forum.

Do you understand?

 

[Pup]

I don't think they were any more violent but when you move into a neighborhood and start telling all your neighbors that their land rightfully belongs to you because god gave it to you then you're bound to have problems.

Yep, manifest destiny sucks for the weaker side. I do think that that mindset was probably behind a lot of the western culture of violence that followed the frontier from the 1700s in Kentucky to Missouri and on west: If you don't like your new neighbors, drive them off; they can always go someplace else.

 

[dafydd]

Previously in this thread I have given the qualifications of James E. Talmage and of the book Jesus The Christ, which is approved and published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... and have made it perfectly that I agree with LDS teachings and Doctrines, otherwise I would not be a member. I am not in an LDS Community where perhaps some members may belong for the advantages of membership or for social activity. Outside of my own family and a few others I have little contact with LDS members.

That's like being qualified to comment on the Harry Potter books.

 

[tsig]

Yep, manifest destiny sucks for the weaker side. I do think that that mindset was probably behind a lot of the western culture of violence that followed the frontier from the 1700s in Kentucky to Missouri and on west: If you don't like your new neighbors, drive kill them off; they can always go someplace else.

FTFY

It's a more permanent solution plus they'll never sue you.

Expansion into new territory is an American creed, the Winning of the West is a very large theme in the American consciousness.

Part of what made Mormonism attractive was it tapped into this well spring of American expansionism. Mormonism was expansionism on steroids, Destiny driven by a Deity, it was bound to come into conflict with the larger society precisely because it embodied so many ideals of America but clothed them in a religious garment that was anathema to most of America.

 

[Foster Zygote]

...I agree with LDS teachings and Doctrines...

Reality, however, does not.

 

[dafydd]

Outside of my own family and a few others I have little contact with LDS members.

You should contact more of them, then you could preach at them instead of us.

 

[tsig]

You should contact more of them, then you could preach at them instead of us.

She can't preach to other Mormons, she's a woman.

 

[RandFan]

Part of what made Mormonism attractive was it tapped into this well spring of American expansionism. Mormonism was expansionism on steroids, Destiny driven by a Deity, it was bound to come into conflict with the larger society precisely because it embodied so many ideals of America but clothed them in a religious garment that was anathema to most of America.

As a Mormon I bought into American Exceptionalism and Manifest Destiny hook line and sinker.

Never mind that divine authority has been the basis for genocide and stealing of property for thousands of years.

¹When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

²And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

No thanks. That's immoral.