LDS

[pakeha]

Thank you. She never even nibbled the bait, though.

No worries, Wolrab.
None of the Mormon posters have nibbled the bait.

Here's a Mormon site explaining the issue with the curse on black people:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=8924479
"David O. McKay, Mormonism's ninth president, said, "I know of no scriptural basis for denying the Priesthood to Negroes other than one verse in the Book of Abraham (1:26)." This LDS passage reads,

"Pharaoh, being a righteous man, established his kingdom and judged his people wisely and justly all his days, seeking earnestly to imitate that order established by the fathers in the first generations, in the days of the first patriarchal reign, even in the reign of Adam, and also of Noah, his father, who blessed him with the blessings of the earth, and with the blessings of wisdom, but cursed him as pertaining to the Priesthood."

The obvious question is this: If LDS Scripture supports a curse upon the Seed of Cain, didn't lifting the curse violate LDS Scripture?

The fact that Blacks were being punished for something they couldn't even remember doing makes this doctrine even more offensive. However, while lifting the ban may have put the LDS Church in a more positive light socially, it demonstrated once more the instability of its doctrines and the fickleness of its God. The decision made in 1978 also demonstrates that the LDS people will accept just about anything their leaders tell them. When it comes to accountability, the leadership of the LDS Church answers to no one. Latter-day Saints may respond by saying their leaders are accountable to God, but what does this really mean when they are allowed to make decisions that contradict what Mormons have historically considered to be God's unchanging will? ..."

"To be sure, the LDS curse upon the Blacks had no biblical justification. This teaching most certainly reflects the social upbringing and bigotry of Mormonism's early leaders rather than the will of the Christian God. The message of the New Testament proclaims that a person's past has no bearing on what he can receive from our gracious God. The Bible declares that God will not hold past transgressions against those who come to Him by faith. (Isaiah 43:25; Jeremiah 31:34; Romans 4:5-7, 23; Hebrews. 8:12)."

The entire article is well worth reading, IMO.

Like the concept of blood atonement, the racism of the LDS has changed over time.
On the one hand, this is good, but on the other, what's left of the LDS when you take away the lies and 19th century prejudices?

 

[Slowvehicle]

For the anti-Mormon posters here busily looking up my internet posts since 2006, I recommend you read them and learn something for a change. Of course much of my past posts on other Forums have been made under other names. Plus a number of Forums have since closed and are now in outer-darkness... shame you missed them, there is so much you need to learn. Though it should be remembered that internet stalking, harassment, and reposting from site to site without permission is illegal and against International Internet Rules.

...so please inform me:
In your personal opinion, when did "Adam" and "Eve" exist?
In your personal opinion, when did the global flood, as described in Genesis, happen?

...and, just to round things out, would you mind providing a citation to the "International Internet Rules" of which you speak?

Thanks!

 

[RoboTimbo]

For the anti-Mormon posters here busily looking up my internet posts since 2006, I recommend you read them and learn something for a change.

We did. We learned you're a plagiarizing spambot with no original thought of your own and an unwillingness to engage meaningfully. Part of that we knew before going to other sites.

 

[carlitos]

Religion may not survive the Internet

Sound familiar?

So, you think the internet is the great purveyor of the unvarnished truth, huh?

Too, too funny.




(a joke, see post 1018 for context)

 

[dafydd]

...so please inform me:
In your personal opinion, when did "Adam" and "Eve" exist?
In your personal opinion, when did the global flood, as described in Genesis, happen?

...and, just to round things out, would you mind providing a citation to the "International Internet Rules" of which you speak?

Thanks!

It seems that Mormons are taught to ignore questions like that. None of the ones who used to come to my front gate never answered them

 

[jsfisher]

Oh, how cute! A smiley.

Eternal Law, Eternal Principles, Eternal Gospel... although progressing in stages according to the understanding and intellect of the recipients... remains the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Intentionally or otherwise, Janadele, you miss the point and respond with just more dogma-babble.

The point was that you claimed, either implicitly or explicitly, the posts to be your own work. The evidence indicates you were lying. You are a liar. What a despicable morality you have, Janadele.

 

[jond]

The lack of response to my question suggests to me that both skyrider44 and Janadele realize just how damaging archaeology and anthropology are to their belief system.

I believe you are correct. I would be interest in Cat Tale's take on this--the reasoned voice on the believers' side.

 

[Cat Tale]

I believe you are correct. I would be interest in Cat Tale's take on this--the reasoned voice on the believers' side.

Actually, I've pretty much voiced my opinion on this. My opinion is that the Book of Mormon does have errors.

The 8th Article of Faith states: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God." Even the Church seems to admit that there are problems, as was evidenced by some things I posted earlier in this thread, i.e. the lack of horses. It admits that skeletons of horses (about the size of the modern mustang) have been found in the La Brea tar pits, but that those horses were extinct by the time of the arrival of the Spaniards. My feeling from the reading is that the church agrees that they were extinct with the ice age about 11 or 10,000 BC. The same article did not go on to mention the lack of barley, though in my mind it could be implied that if there's a problem with horses, there could be problems with other things as well, but again that's just my own speculation.

It is also my own belief, that the Church is currently standing on the hope of new archaeological evidence that will prove conclusively where the events of the Book of Mormon actually happened, and once that's established they will find for more evidence. I think deep down inside this is what I hope as well. Though honestly, I think we all know the odds of that happening, which is why I still have to return to the old thing of "faith the substance of things hoped for..." (Hebrews 11:1)

Intellectually, based on evidence alone, I realize that my beliefs seem foreign to most of you. Even I can see they're not logical. But then again, my faith is not based on logic, but upon hope.

 

[jsfisher]

Intellectually, based on evidence alone, I realize that my beliefs seem foreign to most of you. Even I can see they're not logical. But then again, my faith is not based on logic, but upon hope.

Not so foreign. I have a lot of respect for the kind of faith you present. You have a basic belief in a god and some related principles, That's fine. Then you allow in uncertainty and contradiction, which some atheists may find odd, but you differ from the likes of a couple of others we've heard from. You recognize and admit the uncertainty and contradiction exists, and, most importantly, you let intelligent thought and evidence guide your beliefs rather than the other way around.

I respect that.

 

[Empress]

Like the concept of blood atonement, the racism of the LDS has changed over time.
On the one hand, this is good, but on the other, what's left of the LDS when you take away the lies and 19th century prejudices?

Pretty much exactly what's left in most churches: a sense of community and a feeling of belonging to something greater than ourselves. Cat Tale has mentioned that she was impressed with the lifestyle, and the LDS does emphasize family and industry. (Of course, I view the idea of eternal life with a sense of creeping horror, esp if I have to spend it with my family, the way the LDS maintain. Love them to death, but Jesus Christ on a sesame seed bun, I'd hate to spend eternity up them!)

Of course, the great thing about Mormonism is that it's the only religion I can think of that has gone from New Religious Movement to Mainstream religion since the invention of the printing press. Unlike the other Abrahamic religions, they can't wipe away their unsavory past by rewriting their holy books. We have many examples of NRM that have faded out when the charismatic founder died, but in this case, Brigham Young was available to step into the role and bring the church through the crisis. So tracing the history of the LDS may well give us insights into how, for example, Christianity survived after Jesus' death (assuming he was a real person).

ETA: Re-reading your statement, I realize I probably misinterpreted your meaning. Sorry about that.

 

[jond]

Actually, I've pretty much voiced my opinion on this. My opinion is that the Book of Mormon does have errors.

The 8th Article of Faith states: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God." Even the Church seems to admit that there are problems, as was evidenced by some things I posted earlier in this thread, i.e. the lack of horses. It admits that skeletons of horses (about the size of the modern mustang) have been found in the La Brea tar pits, but that those horses were extinct by the time of the arrival of the Spaniards. My feeling from the reading is that the church agrees that they were extinct with the ice age about 11 or 10,000 BC. The same article did not go on to mention the lack of barley, though in my mind it could be implied that if there's a problem with horses, there could be problems with other things as well, but again that's just my own speculation.

It is also my own belief, that the Church is currently standing on the hope of new archaeological evidence that will prove conclusively where the events of the Book of Mormon actually happened, and once that's established they will find for more evidence. I think deep down inside this is what I hope as well. Though honestly, I think we all know the odds of that happening, which is why I still have to return to the old thing of "faith the substance of things hoped for..." (Hebrews 11:1)

Intellectually, based on evidence alone, I realize that my beliefs seem foreign to most of you. Even I can see they're not logical. But then again, my faith is not based on logic, but upon hope.

Thanks, Cat Tale. Nothing wrong with that. Why is it so hard for the others to say this?

 

[Craig4]

For the anti-Mormon posters here busily looking up my internet posts since 2006, I recommend you read them and learn something for a change. Of course much of my past posts on other Forums have been made under other names. Plus a number of Forums have since closed and are now in outer-darkness... shame you missed them, there is so much you need to learn. Though it should be remembered that internet stalking, harassment, and reposting from site to site without permission is illegal and against International Internet Rules.

But you just cite Mormon literature. That's not worthy of study except when one is attempting to save people who have been taken in by the deception.

 

[pakeha]

Pretty much exactly what's left in most churches: a sense of community and a feeling of belonging to something greater than ourselves. Cat Tale has mentioned that she was impressed with the lifestyle, and the LDS does emphasize family and industry. (Of course, I view the idea of eternal life with a sense of creeping horror, esp if I have to spend it with my family, the way the LDS maintain. Love them to death, but Jesus Christ on a sesame seed bun, I'd hate to spend eternity up them!)

Of course, the great thing about Mormonism is that it's the only religion I can think of that has gone from New Religious Movement to Mainstream religion since the invention of the printing press. Unlike the other Abrahamic religions, they can't wipe away their unsavory past by rewriting their holy books. We have many examples of NRM that have faded out when the charismatic founder died, but in this case, Brigham Young was available to step into the role and bring the church through the crisis. So tracing the history of the LDS may well give us insights into how, for example, Christianity survived after Jesus' death (assuming he was a real person).

ETA: Re-reading your statement, I realize I probably misinterpreted your meaning. Sorry about that.

No worries, Empress.
I quite enjoyed reading your take on the subject.
At the end of the day, I actually have a lot of curiosity about why someone would base their spiritual life on something they know to be a lie.

 

[Vic Vega]

Though it should be remembered that internet stalking, harassment, and reposting from site to site without permission is illegal and against International Internet Rules.

Really? Wow! I did not know this.

If I violate these laws, who will come and arrest me? Is there an Internet Police or will the FBI or Interpol come knocking?

Where would I be tried?

If found guilty, where would I serve time? Would they at least allow me to be placed in a prison near home so my family could visit me?

 

[dafydd]

 

[RandFan]

deleted.

 

[tsig]

Really? Wow! I did not know this.

If I violate these laws, who will come and arrest me? Is there an Internet Police or will the FBI or Interpol come knocking?

Where would I be tried?

If found guilty, where would I serve time? Would they at least allow me to be placed in a prison near home so my family could visit me?

The Virtual Internet Police will sequester all your avatars and usernames in a locked file.

No one wants to roam naked on the Internet.

 

[Vic Vega]

The Virtual Internet Police will sequester all your avatars and usernames in a locked file.

No one wants to roam naked on the Internet.

But I like my avatar!

 

[dafydd]

Plus a number of Forums have since closed and are now in outer-darkness...

No. They are just closed.

 

[Jomante]

No worries, Empress.
I quite enjoyed reading your take on the subject.
At the end of the day, I actually have a lot of curiosity about why someone would base their spiritual life on something they know to be a lie.

People will knowingly go along with a lie if the benefit is worth it. My kids, for example, don't really believe in Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny, but they go along with it because, hey, there's money, presents, and chocolate in it for them!

Similarly, religion gives people hope. Hope to see lost loved ones again, hope to exist beyond this life, hope that some immortal cares about them. Is that worth the trade-off of believing a lie? Apparently a lot of people seem to think so.