LDS

[Richard Masters]

No I do not, nor do I intend to. I have no time nor interest in reading, thinking about, or discussing the lies, misinterpretations, and nonsense of anti-Mormon propaganda. It is entirely inappropriate to this thread.

Another thread should be started by those who wish to waste their time on this false mentality. This thread is on actual LDS teachings, Scriptures and Doctrines, NOT fabrications.

If you can't give us feedback on why something is "anti-Mormon" propaganda, then you don't get to complain about "anti-Mormon" propaganda.

 

[Janadele]

For the anti-Mormon posters here busily looking up my internet posts since 2006, I recommend you read them and learn something for a change. Of course much of my past posts on other Forums have been made under other names. Plus a number of Forums have since closed and are now in outer-darkness... shame you missed them, there is so much you need to learn. Though it should be remembered that internet stalking, harassment, and reposting from site to site without permission is illegal and against International Internet Rules.

 

[Janadele]

Eternal Law, Eternal Principles, Eternal Gospel... although progressing in stages according to the understanding and intellect of the recipients... remains the same yesterday, today, and forever.

For what it's worth, though the words are taken from Talmage, she apparently made an original choice of what to include and what to leave out.
For example, see if you can find "twinkling of an eye. Among the earliest revelations" as a phrase elsewhere on the web. (Google it in quotes.) That's the end of one sentence from Talmage combined with the beginning of another sentence from Talmage. Only Janadele seems to have left out the middle portion and run them together in that combination.

Yes, she did selectively copy the text and rearrange some of it. Still, I do not think that qualifies as "summarizing", which is what she claimed, and it challenges the meaning of "condensed", which she also claimed.

Alas, while the score is probably fair, the tool is comparing text against what can be found on the web. This being a public section of the forums, just about every post will get a 0% unique score within a few hours of posting.

Having thought about it, my claim of a 0% rating was wrong. Janadele I apologize to you.

 

[AdMan]

Eternal Law, Eternal Principles, Eternal Gospel... although progressing in stages according to the understanding and intellect of the recipients... remains the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Are you incapable of independent thought?

Do you understand how badly that plays here?

 

[Mashuna]

Of course I believe that Adam and Eve were actual flesh and blood persons... and that they were the first of humankind on this earth. As per my previous post: in Jesus The Christ by James E Talmage, Adam is referred to as the Patriach of the race, and Eve as the Mother of the race, and both are referred to as our first parents.

"Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a Prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s Prophets. Latter-day Prophets teach that the Flood or the total immersion of the earth in water represents the earth’s required baptism. Elder John A.Widtsoe of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “Latter-day Saints look upon the earth as a living organism, one which is gloriously filling ‘the measure of its creation.’ They look upon the flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life. This has been repeatedly taught by the leaders of the Church. The deluge was an immersion of the earth in water.” He writes that the removal of earth’s wicked inhabitants in the Flood represents that which occurs in our own baptism for the remission of sins."

Thank you for your answers. Do you consider all the scientific evidence proving that there was no flood, and that Adam and Eve did not exist to be anti-Mormon propaganda? If not, how do you reconcile your beliefs with all the evidence that shows your beliefs to be false?

 

[RandFan]

I very, very rarely accuse people of being a troll. But Janadelle fits the description. Smarmy and patronizing she refuses to engage in any meaningful way. I won't ask anyone to stop responding to her as I don't care for when others ask the same of me.

But I personally find her incapable of addressing arguments in any meaningful way. There is just nothing there. She keep copying and pasting nonsense as if it has any bearing on anything. It doesn't.

 

[RandFan]

Mormonism has a problem

Religion may not survive the Internet

A traditional religion, one built on “right belief,” requires a closed information system. That is why the Catholic Church put an official seal of approval on some ancient texts and banned or burned others. It is why some Bible-believing Christians are forbidden to marry nonbelievers. It is why Quiverfull moms home school their kids from carefully screened text books. It is why, when you get sucked into conversations with your fundamentalist uncle George from Florida, you sometimes wonder if he has some superpower that allows him to magically close down all avenues into his mind. (He does!)

Sound familiar?

To survive Mormonism will have to adapt. They removed the blood oaths from the temple ceremony, they've allowed blacks to hold the priesthood, they have allowed women to pierce their ears and wear pants, these changes and more have happened just in my life time.

The weak and often fallacious arguments by folks like Janandele cannot compete with reason.

Number of faithful Mormons rapidly declining

We have the facts. Eventually the truth prevails over superstition and fairy tales.

• Animal sacrifice
• Human sacrifice
• Witches
• Wizards
• Genocide
• Misogyny
• Talking snakes
• Talking donkeys

Like all of the Abraham faiths, these are the foundation of Mormonism. The enlightenment is finally piercing the darkness of ignorance and subjugation.

 

[pakeha]

You may be right, Randfan, about Janadele being a troll, but I for one am learning a great deal from this thread, thanks to the many posters here.

Originally Posted by Janadele View Post

The Pearl of Great Price is LDS Scripture and Doctrine and contains many enlightening truths which expand on our understanding of Bible principles.
In the The Book of Abraham, Chapters 3 and 5, we read:

... the prophet of Amonrasonter, prophet [?] of Min Bull-of-his-Mother, prophet [?] of Khons the Governor... Hor, justified, son of the holder of the same titles, master of secrets, and purifier of the gods Osorwer, justified [?]... Tikhebyt, justified. May your ba live among them, and may you be buried in the West...May you give him a good, splendid burial on the West of Thebes just like ...[81]

and

this great pool of Khonsu [Osiris Hor, justified], born of Taykhebyt, a man likewise. After (his) two arms are [fast]ened to his breast, one wraps the Book of Breathings, which is with writing both inside and outside of it, with royal linen, it being placed (at) his left arm near his heart, this having been done at his wrapping and outside it. If this book be recited for him, then he will breathe like the soul[s of the gods] for ever and ever.[82]

__________________

Well played, Wolrab. I am still bemused anyone would follow the teaching of the perpetrator of that work of fiction called the Book of Abraham

Ignoring the dishonesty of Smith is a bit like ignoring an elephant in the room. You can't separate Smith's lies from LDS. The dishonesty is intertwined in everything the LDS believe.

I have to agree with you.

No I do not, nor do I intend to. I have no time nor interest in reading, thinking about, or discussing the lies, misinterpretations, and nonsense of anti-Mormon propaganda. It is entirely inappropriate to this thread.

Another thread should be started by those who wish to waste their time on this false mentality. This thread is on actual LDS teachings, Scriptures and Doctrines, NOT fabrications.

Fabrications? You mean like the BOA, Janadele?
I ask this very seriously, because the nature of the BOA abundantly clear.

...By the way, thank you for finally accepting the regular convention of posting your responses after the quote. It really does make what you post easier to read. I (and undoubtedly others) appreciate it.

Yes, that really helps following your posts, Janadele.

 

[RandFan]

You may be right, Randfan, about Janadele being a troll, but I for one am learning a great deal from this thread, thanks to the many posters here.

I think it has been very worthwhile. And I should point out that IMO she isn't a typical troll. I don't think she is trying to provoke people to anger. I think she legitimately believes she is on a mission for god.

But having read a number of posts on the other thread from years ago it's clear that she will not engage. She simply wants to stand on a soap box and preach.

But yeah, I'm otherwise happy with the thread. She does provide some great grist for the mill. Keep it coming Janadele.

And FWIW: This is about what you are saying and not you personally. I don't know you. I'm sure you are a fine and decent person. I bear you no ill will.

 

[RandFan]

Something I never considered:

Throughout the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, these doctrines gained traction while memories of early African-American priesthood holders like Elijah Abel faded; Church leaders continued to prohibit temple ordinances and priesthood ordination for Church members with as little as “1/32” African-American ancestry. In 1949, the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a statement declaring that the black priesthood ban was a “direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization.”

"1/32" There are a number of implications in that. I did not have to submit my genealogy in order to go through the temple, how did the Church know I did not have sufficient African-American ancestry to keep me out of the temple? And is it reasonable that god sends bad (for lack of a better word) souls to those who have 1/32 but not 1/64?

God: Brother Brigham
BY: Yes God
God: I'm sending all of the disobedient spirit children to black parents.
BY: Okay.
God: Since they are disobedient they cannot have the priesthood or go through the temple.
BY: Okay, no black people. Got it.
God: Wait.... um, make it anyone that has 1/32 of black blood or more.
BY: You got it.

It's so absurd as to bugger belief.

 

[Myriad]

It's so absurd as to bugger belief.

The usual phrasing is "to beggar belief."

But your way fits too. Perhaps even better.

 

[Stomatopoda]

I think belief is what does the buggering.

 

[Pup]

Eternal Law, Eternal Principles, Eternal Gospel... although progressing in stages according to the understanding and intellect of the recipients... remains the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Janadele, do you understand what plagiarism is? Stealing others' words and posting them as your own in the intellectual world is considered to be just as much theft as stealing someone's belongings. It's one of those eternal principles of right and wrong that both religious and non-religious people understand.

Plagiarism is what you did in the post which Cat Tale went through and found the sources. You didn't credit those sources, you published them with no other credit than your own name on the post, and you disguised the words so it would be difficult to discover that they weren't your own.

One can see how such theft and dishonesty ruins reputations and careers by googling plagiarism scandal.

Plagiarism is probably not something Janadele wants to have linked with her name on Google, but it may be too late.

 

[RandFan]

The usual phrasing is "to beggar belief."

But your way fits too. Perhaps even better.

I think belief is what does the buggering.

 

[dafydd]

Janadele, do you understand what plagiarism is? Stealing others' words and posting them as your own in the intellectual world is considered to be just as much theft as stealing someone's belongings. It's one of those eternal principles of right and wrong that both religious and non-religious people understand.

Plagiarism is what you did in the post which Cat Tale went through and found the sources. You didn't credit those sources, you published them with no other credit than your own name on the post, and you disguised the words so it would be difficult to discover that they weren't your own.

One can see how such theft and dishonesty ruins reputations and careers by googling plagiarism scandal.

Plagiarism is probably not something Janadele wants to have linked with her name on Google, but it may be too late.

Charles Seeger said that ''plagiarism is the basis of all culture'' but the trick is not to get caught.

 

[Wolrab]

You may be right, Randfan, about Janadele being a troll, but I for one am learning a great deal from this thread, thanks to the many posters here.



Well played, Wolrab. I am still bemused anyone would follow the teaching of the perpetrator of that work of fiction called the Book of Abraham





I have to agree with you.



Fabrications? You mean like the BOA, Janadele?
I ask this very seriously, because the nature of the BOA abundantly clear.



Yes, that really helps following your posts, Janadele.

Thank you. She never even nibbled the bait, though.

 

[Pup]

I just wrote the following, then realized I assumed the 1/32 rule was based on an official statement from Joseph Smith or Brigham Young, and thought it sounded odd. But upon re-reading, I see that that's not necessarily so. The 1/32 is from a website about the church, and might have even been anecdotally referring to just one individual case, since it says "as little as."

So I'll let the following stand, but ask, was there an official church statement about when the cut-off occurred or did it vary according to the individual situation and 1/32 was just the worst case anyone could find?

Heaven forbid this is one of those incorrect anti-Mormon facts that Janadele has been warning us about.

And is it reasonable that god sends bad (for lack of a better word) souls to those who have 1/32 but not 1/64?

1/32 sounds like an odd choice. That's longer than God usually punished people.

Some white dude shagged a slave--sin of the father
First generation 1/2
Second generation 1/4
Third generation 1/8
Fourth generation 1/16
Fifth generation 1/32
Sixth generation 1/64--he's clean.

That's harsher than the usual "unto the third and fourth generation."

It's also a generation harsher than the complex period Jamaican levels of color, which went:

Black
Mulatto 1/2
Quadroon 1/4
Mustee 1/8
Mustafina 1/16
"After that they are white washed, and considered as European." From Capt. Marryat: http://books.google.com/books?id=7688AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA70&output=html

Many other sources say that the mustafina was considered white by law, so Capt. Marryat in the above source may mean that there's no more name, other than "white," for the offspring of a mustafina and a white, even though legal whiteness is conferred at 1/16.

I can find all kinds of non-Mormon references to the Curse of Ham, of course, and to the various shades of black and white in Jamaica, but none combining the two--it seems rare to have defined just when the Curse of Ham wore off, in the period.

In America, there didn't seem to be as rigid a color system. Children of slaves (edited to clarify, children of female slaves) were always slaves no matter how white--I've seen accounts of red-headed slaves with freckles--while free blacks who looked white enough could generally just pass as white if they wanted, though one-eighth was generally as much as counted to make them legally black.

So it seems odd that someone in the early 19th century, basing a cut-off generation either on cultural practices and a Biblical basis, would choose 1/32. Any idea where that came from?

 

[Pup]

Charles Seeger said that ''plagiarism is the basis of all culture'' but the trick is not to get caught.

I think there's just a little bit of difference between adapting a traditional folk song and then claiming it as one's own, and blatantly stealing other historians' words in a semi-formal post.

 

[Foster Zygote]

The lack of response to my question suggests to me that both skyrider44 and Janadele realize just how damaging archaeology and anthropology are to their belief system.

 

[dafydd]

I think there's just a little bit of difference between adapting a traditional folk song and then claiming it as one's own, and blatantly stealing other historians' words in a semi-formal post.

Good point!