LDS

[TjW]

IOW god will punish us til we love obey him like any human tyrant. Why does your god sound so petty?



The Kingdom of God has been established among men

At least, those who survive the punishments.

The floggings will continue until morale improves.

 

[tsig]

Answer continued from my previous post:
The God we worship is just and merciful. He never brings upon the earth any judgment but He sends first a warning message to prepare the people for its coming. This is our warning to-day—that the Gospel of the kingdom is being preached unto all nations as a witness, and then the hour of God's judgment, or the predicted end of the world shall come. This is the message we bring, the olive branch that we extend to the world... God does not punish except to save, He never chastens except to purify. In sweeping the antediluvian races from the earth, it was an act of mercy to them, that they might not add sin to sin and heap up iniquity until they could not have been pardoned. He swept them off when their cup was full, and imprisoned their spirits while their bodies mouldered in the grave. Jesus, however, while His body was lying in the tomb, went and preached to the spirits in prison; those who rejected the message that was offered to them by Noah, and were swept away by the flood.

It is that the world may escape these terrible judgments and plagues that will desolate the wicked, that we put our lives and liberties in jeopardy in preaching that which is unpopular, and which brings upon us the wrath and hatred of the world. We desire, as much as men can desire, the salvation of our fellow-men. Our mission is to save, not to condemn. This is the Gospel of salvation, not a Gospel of damnation. Damnation follows as a necessary alternative of the rejection of the truth. Men who reject the truth damn themselves. The man who will shut the door in his own face keeps himself out from the Kingdom: it is nobody's fault but his own. The waters of life are free; come and partake of them, without money and without price! If you will not partake of them, how can you blame any one but yourself if you die of thirst in the desert? If you put out the light by persecuting the Saints of God, how can you blame anybody but yourself if you are left in darkness? If condemnation follows the rejection of the Gospel, God cannot help it, His servants cannot help it. If we invite men to come out into the sunlight and they prefer to stay in the shade, who is to blame but themselves?. They have their choice. Light has burst forth in the midst of darkness, but the darkness comprehendeth it not. Men love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. Responsibility rests like a mountain upon those who hear the truth and then reject it to their condemnation. http://en.fairmormon.org/Criticism_of_Mormonism/Anti-Mormon

Do you have any thoughts of your own?

 

[tsig]

skyrider claims to have found some which are "without equal":



But when I asked him what they were ...



... answer came there none.

It seems we're being treated to vast mouthing of platitudes with nary a specific verse in sight.

 

[tsig]

Well AdMAn, the questions were asked and an answer was expected. You are not obliged to read it.

Except that they weren't answers, they were preachings.

An answer is supposed to be responsive to the question and not a C&P from a Mormon apologetics site.

 

[carlitos]

I wonder how many Mormons have read the BoM?

More and more are seeing the musical, so that should help.

 

[Janadele]

Please do not find this rude, but does that mean that you, personally, believe that "Adam" was an actual, flesh-and-blood person, as was "Eve";

Of course I believe that Adam and Eve were actual flesh and blood persons... and that they were the first of humankind on this earth. As per my previous post: in Jesus The Christ by James E Talmage, Adam is referred to as the Patriach of the race, and Eve as the Mother of the race, and both are referred to as our first parents.

 

[carlitos]

Hi Janadele,

When you state that some guy "James E Talmage" or whomever believes something, it's not at all clear what you believe. No one here is really interested in some other guy's thoughts. We are speaking to each other here.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[jsfisher]

So the NT pre-existed Jesus' birth

In a nut case, yes.


(That doesn't sound quite right. Did I mean 'nut shell'?)

 

[tsig]

Much can be found on the Millennium within LDS Teachings and Doctrines... including in Jesus The Christ by James E. Talmage, from where I have summarised and condensed the following: The Millennium is to precede the time designated in scriptural phrase "the end of the world." The inauguration of Christ's reign on earth is to be the beginning of a period that shall be distinct in many important particulars from all precedent and subsequent time; and the Lord shall reign with His people a thousand years. The government of individuals, communities and nations throughout this Millennium is to be that of a perfect theocracy, with Jesus the Christ as Lord and King. The more wicked part of the race shall have been destroyed; and during the period Satan shall be bound "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled"; while the just shall share with Christ in rightful rule and dominion. The righteous dead shall have come forth from their graves, while the wicked shall remain not resurrected until the thousand years be past. Men yet in the flesh shall mingle with immortalised beings; children shall grow to maturity and then die in peace or be changed to immortality "in the twinkling of an eye." Among the earliest revelations on this subject is that given to Enoch.

In these latter days the Lord has thus spoken: "And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth. And in that day the enmity of man, and the enmity of beasts, yea, the enmity of all flesh, shall cease from before my face. When the thousand years are passed, Satan shall be loosed for a little season, and the final test of man's integrity to God shall ensue. Such as are prone to impurity of heart shall yield to temptation while the righteous shall endure to the end. For the great Millennium, of which I have spoken by the mouth of my servants, shall come; And he that liveth in righteousness shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and the earth shall pass away so as by fire; And the wicked shall go away into unquenchable fire, and their end no man knoweth on earth, nor ever shall know, until they come before me in judgment. Hearken ye to these words: Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world. Treasure these things up in your hearts, and let the solemnities of eternity rest upon your minds." The vanquishment of Satan and his hosts shall be complete. The dead, small and great, all who have breathed the breath of life on earth, shall be resurrected--every soul that has tabernacled in flesh, whether good or evil--and shall stand before God, to be judged according to the record as written in the books. So shall be brought to glorious consummation the mission of the Christ who shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father spotless. The earth shall pass to its glorified and celestialized condition, an eternal abode for the exalted sons and daughters of God... redeemed, sanctified, and exalted through their Lord and God JESUS THE CHRIST.

Just reigning over a single planet looks like a demotion after you've been ruling the whole universe.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Of course I believe that Adam and Eve were actual flesh and blood persons... and that they were the first of humankind on this earth. As per my previous post: in Jesus The Christ by James E Talmage, Adam is referred to as the Patriach of the race, and Eve as the Mother of the race, and both are referred to as our first parents.

Well, I could have done without the "of course"...but thanks. Now, would you mind telling me when you believe "Adam" and "Eve" lived, roughly?

 

[Janadele]

Hi Janadele,
When you state that some guy "James E Talmage" or whomever believes something, it's not at all clear what you believe...

It is perfectly clear what I believe, and that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ as per the Doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... which is the topic of this thread, not the Gospel of Janadele.

 

[tsig]

Thanks for the thanks.

It seemed that you were projecting your own point of view onto Cat Tale's post, and therefore missing the jist of it.



As she explained, it was one of those wonky links that don't work directly, so she was using the standard solution of linking as close as possible, then explaining the final clicks.

So the situation was just the opposite: the link was presented as best it could be, to show that she does believe that one kind of blood atonement--executing murderers--was part of the 19th century church and she could provide evidence for it.

The trickier part--which may never be able to be proven--is whether the other kind of blood atonement, hunting down and shooting apostates, was official doctrine and ordered by the church.

I suspect that the closest we'll be able to get at this late date is the evidence that some Mormons did it on their own while claiming higher authority, but without conclusive evidence that it was actually made official doctrine and ordered by church leaders.

That may be due to men like Brigham Young and Joseph Smith secretly ordering murders while carefully creating plausible deniability, or it may be due to Young/Smith actually not ordering them and the deniability therefore being real. Or it may be a sin of omission: Young/Smith not actually ordering it, but not doing enough to stop it when murderous church members acted on their own in ways that benefitted the church.

I tend to lean toward the latter view, but then the question comes, how much were they holding a wild west tiger by the tail vs. how much could they have done to stop it.

What's ironic is that Protestant Christians were doing similar things to Mormons. Each side was spinning what was happening to try to gain the public relations advantage, and the public relations war is almost as interesting as what was actually happening.

There's a good article on the situation, from a folklorist's point of view, available here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ARDXAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA37&output=html

To give a sample from the article:


So that's a background worth keeping in mind, whenever one encounters the period Protestant spin today, which frames the conversation as: We should be asking if Mormons were hunting and killing apostate Mormons due to their weird belief in blood atonement, but Protestants hunting and killing Mormons was normal for the wild west because y'know, that's just what people did back then, so it's not really worth worrying about why.

That's the conversation that period Protestants would want us to be having. It's surprising, sometimes, how thoroughly and subtly the idea has spread and entered U.S. culture, that what Protestants do is the basis of normal.

Although I'm sure myself that both JS and BY ordered blood atonement I see it as a red herring in this discussion when the entire BoM is drenched in blood.

From individual killings to carnage to genocide there's hardly a page that doesn't recount some act of violence.


To wit:

2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.


Interesting that the BoM says that the last big battle was fought at the hill of Cumorah the same hill where JC found the plates but now BoM scholars place all the events in the BoM were the Mayas lived.

 

[dafydd]

It is perfectly clear what I believe, and that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ as per the Doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... which is the topic of this thread, not the Gospel of Janadele.

It's the same tosh.

 

[Recovering Agnostic]

It is perfectly clear what I believe, and that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ as per the Doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... which is the topic of this thread, not the Gospel of Janadele.

Yes, but which Gospel? Over and over in this thread, people have pointed to things that Mormons appear to believe, or some of them believe, or once believed, and despite pretty clear quotes demonstrating those beliefs, you've been flatly denying that they're true. So when you say that Rufus T Firefly wrote a book about something or other, with no further comment, it's hardly surprising if people would like clarification on whether you actually agree.

 

[RandFan]

{snip}

This is a skeptics site not a preaching site. You are not responding in a way that is conducive to a discussion. You are just preaching. You come off no different than any other religious brainwashed sheep.

 

[RandFan]

Do you have any thoughts of your own?

It has really become stepford wives in here. A well programmed bot could do better.

 

[carlitos]

It is perfectly clear what I believe, and that is the Gospel of Jesus Christ as per the Doctrines and teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints... which is the topic of this thread, not the Gospel of Janadele.

It's perfectly clear to you what you believe. It's not perfectly clear to me unless you tell me. Your version of Mormonism is different from other versions, whether you believe so or not.

And just FYI, claiming on a skeptic's site that you basically just believe whatever they tell you to believe isn't a big badge of honor. It's akin to brainwashing. Cult behavior.

 

[Janadele]

Janadele, from your quotes can I assume you also believe in a global flood... and is this standard for Mormons?

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1998/01/t...-babel?lang=eng&query="+baptism+of+the+earth"

"Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a Prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s Prophets. Latter-day Prophets teach that the Flood or the total immersion of the earth in water represents the earth’s required baptism. Elder John A.Widtsoe of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles explained: “Latter-day Saints look upon the earth as a living organism, one which is gloriously filling ‘the measure of its creation.’ They look upon the flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life. This has been repeatedly taught by the leaders of the Church. The deluge was an immersion of the earth in water.” He writes that the removal of earth’s wicked inhabitants in the Flood represents that which occurs in our own baptism for the remission of sins."

 

[Pup]

Although I'm sure myself that both JS and BY ordered blood atonement

You mean blood atonement as in the killing of apostates, right?

I think the evidence is pretty solid that they supported blood atonement, in the sense of executing convicted criminals in a way that spilled their blood (firing squad rather than hanging, for example).

The problem is that the evidence I've seen (and admittedly I haven't looked into it a whole lot, so there's lots out there that I haven't seen) tends to be the murderers themselves saying the order came from higher up, but the higher ups themselves denying it. Of course both sides would have an incentive to lie to pass the responsibility, depending what the actual truth was.

What's the best example of evidence, that shows Brigham Young or Joseph Smith specifically ordering a murder?

I see it as a red herring in this discussion when the entire BoM is drenched in blood.

From individual killings to carnage to genocide there's hardly a page that doesn't recount some act of violence.

I always figured it was because the Book of Mormon was supposed to sound like the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is the same way.

Do you think that Mormons were significantly more violent than Protestants at the same time and place?

Edited to add: I think that both were similar, with the violence gradually escalating from things like mobs and tar & feathering, to frontier-style murders, as the Mormons moved toward the more-violent frontier, so both sides were using their religion (or hatred of another religion) to justify actions that were actually more affected by the larger cultural norms around them.

 

[RandFan]

"Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a Prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth.

The story of Noah's Ark is a oral legend. It's not possible. That's been demonstrated many times.

Noah's Ark - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

Noah's Ark - Debunked in 40 seconds - YouTube

Of course facts mean nothing to you. That's fine. But understand this, if you don't accept facts then you are unreasonable. This is a skeptics forum. Not a gullibility site for drinking the Kool-aid.