LDS

[Pixel42]

Ok, Mormons in this thread, what spiritual truths have you gotten from the BoM?

skyrider claims to have found some which are "without equal":

In their fervor to find what is wrong with the LDS Church's keystone scripture, critics have overlooked what is right with it. It contains spiritual insights that are without equal, particularly concerning God's relationship with mortals.

But when I asked him what they were ...

Such as? Examples, please.

... answer came there none.

 

[AdMan]

This is an extensive subject and much can be found on it within LDS Teachings and Doctrines...

<BS snipped>

Yawn.

And you think preaching is going to work here why?

 

[Janadele]

Well AdMAn, the questions were asked and an answer was expected. You are not obliged to read it.

 

[Janadele]

Janadele, Are you also a young earth creationist ?

The creation was twofold—first spiritual, secondly temporal. The elements are infinite and eternal. All that exists has always existed without a beginning from everlasting to everlasting. One who organizes materials in a completely new way, by organising the existing matter available, is a creator. We were all in the beginning as an intelligence. Our intelligence was born into a Spiritual body through our Heavenly parents. This Spiritual body grew to maturity in our Pre Mortal Existence, as each of us reached a different stage of knowledge and elevation of intelligence. We were each given the choice to further progress by choosing to come to this earth for our Spiritual body to receive a mortal body for a trial period. Our progression has brought us here to this moment in time and all will continue to progress through the eternities... except for those who choose Lucifer and follow him to outer darkness and regress back to the state their intelligence once was.

The Pearl of Great Price is LDS Scripture and Doctrine and contains many enlightening truths which expand on our understanding of Bible principles.
In the The Book of Abraham, Chapters 3 and 5, we read:

4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the Noble and Great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and He stood in the midst of them, and He said: These I will make my rulers; for He stood among those that were Spirits, and he saw that they were good; and He said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and He said unto those who were with Him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

5:13 Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.

 

[AdMan]

Well AdMAn, the questions were asked and an answer was expected. You are not obliged to read it.

Of course this is true (not the questions answered bit). But do you really hope to convince anyone here with that nonsense?

I can quote any "holy" book and proclaim it is true. How is your post any different?

 

[Pixel42]

The God we worship is just and merciful. He never brings upon the earth any judgment but He sends first a warning message to prepare the people for its coming. This is our warning to-day—that the Gospel of the kingdom is being preached unto all nations as a witness, and then the hour of God's judgment, or the predicted end of the world shall come.

If God really wanted to avoid visiting "these terrible judgments and plagues" on the world he would have sent a message a hell of a lot more convincing than the farrago of easily disproved drivel that is the Book of Mormon.

So either the BoM is not God's message, or he really really wants to start sending those terrible judgments and plagues.

It is that the world may escape these terrible judgments and plagues that will desolate the wicked, that we put our lives and liberties in jeopardy in preaching that which is unpopular, and which brings upon us the wrath and hatred of the world.

Not so much wrath and hatred as pity and amusement.

Damnation follows as a necessary alternative of the rejection of the truth. Men who reject the truth damn themselves.

If that's true I pity Mormons, who are clearly rejecting the truth about the Books of Mormon and Abraham.

If we invite men to come out into the sunlight and they prefer to stay in the shade, who is to blame but themselves?. They have their choice.

Indeed. We've done our best to help you into the light, but if you choose to stick your fingers in your ears and say la la la we can do no more.

 

[dafydd]

The coming of Jesus Christ, and the purposes of it, was known and determined in the Pre Mortal Existence... and was known by the Book of Mormon Prophets. The Gospel has been Eternal Law since the Beginning of time. Adam possessed the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ... which he taught his posterity.

Adam did not exist. Why do you keep posting this nonsensical preaching? You will find no converts here.

 

[Agatha]

Snip preaching.

Thank you for replying, but I had hoped for an answer rather than a sermon copied from elsewhere.

How do you know these are the 'latter days' - and what are the 'latter-days'?

Reading between the lines of your response, I'm guessing you claim that the signs mentioned in the Bible, such as the gospel being preached to the whole world, and an increase in wars, famine, earthquakes etc means that the Biblical end of the world is near, and that these signs have arrived. If I've read this wrongly, please correct me.

Previously, you also claimed that God would be ushering in 'the Millennium'. What does this mean in this context? A millennium is a period of a thousand years. Do these 'latter days' take a thousand years? Please explain.

 

[Recovering Agnostic]

Thank you for replying, but I had hoped for an answer rather than a sermon copied from elsewhere.

How do you know these are the 'latter days' - and what are the 'latter-days'?

Reading between the lines of your response, I'm guessing you claim that the signs mentioned in the Bible, such as the gospel being preached to the whole world, and an increase in wars, famine, earthquakes etc means that the Biblical end of the world is near, and that these signs have arrived. If I've read this wrongly, please correct me.

Previously, you also claimed that God would be ushering in 'the Millennium'. What does this mean in this context? A millennium is a period of a thousand years. Do these 'latter days' take a thousand years? Please explain.

It's a sort of code for a different age, or phase of human existence. Strictly, it signifies a thousand years, but in reality it's more about a new phase when a certain set of beliefs rule the world and everyone lives happily ever after. The basic belief is called Millenarianism^WP, but within that there are all sorts of variations.

 

[pakeha]

"Blood atonement" is not and never was LDS Doctrine.
The Pearl of Great Price is LDS Scripture, and as such is revered and cherished LDS Doctrine.

While it may be cherished, it's very clear the BOA is complete fiction passed off as a translation.
I really don't understand why cherishing a lie can bring any spiritual benefit.

I think the point is, though, that there are/were several different kinds of uniquely Mormon blood atonement (aside from the universal Christian idea of Christ's blood atonement), and it's not as easy as saying blood atonement was or wasn't part of the early church, because there were differing definitions.

The period article highlights two obvious ones: blood atonement (i.e. capital punishment by firing squad) for legally convicted murders, vs. blood atonement by killing those who commit the "sin" of apostacizing from the church.

The period article says the first definitely is church doctrine (at that time), while the second isn't.

Each of the links you posted addresses at least some of the different definitions, but like a lot on this topic, they seem to mix and match the various meanings.

There are also other nuances, such as whether the church believed they had the authority to kill someone on their own, whether the church could only condemn a person through secular law, whether the person must kill themselves, what crimes/sins are subject to blood atonement (one of your links mentions an example where it was used for adultery--not surprising in an era when rape was also a capital crime, but not the first thing one thinks of concerning blood atonement).

To show the long-lasting echoes of the version of blood atonement where it's a form of capital punishment after legal conviction of murder, death by firing squad was a choice in Utah up until recently, and there's the example of convicted murderer Ronnie Lee Gardner:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_by_firing_squad



From the Deseret News article linked in the Wikipedia footnote:





Protestant/Catholic Christians don't seem to be embarrassed over Leviticus, and this seems no worse than anything in there.



I wish Skyrider44 would come back and expound further on the active LDS he mentioned who consider the Book of Mormon "a work of the 19th century."

Thanks for the thoughtful answer!

"Protestant/Catholic Christians don't seem to be embarrassed over Leviticus, and this seems no worse than anything in there."
Pup, I don't speak for others. I speak for myself.

The biggest anachronism of all is the entire BoM because the people in it behave and talk pretty much like 18th century protestants. ...

Bingo.

 

[Janadele]

What is the Millennium in this context?

Previously, you also claimed that God would be ushering in 'the Millennium'. What does this mean in this context? A millennium is a period of a thousand years. Do these 'latter days' take a thousand years? Please explain.

Much can be found on the Millennium within LDS Teachings and Doctrines... including in Jesus The Christ by James E. Talmage, from where I have summarised and condensed the following: The Millennium is to precede the time designated in scriptural phrase "the end of the world." The inauguration of Christ's reign on earth is to be the beginning of a period that shall be distinct in many important particulars from all precedent and subsequent time; and the Lord shall reign with His people a thousand years. The government of individuals, communities and nations throughout this Millennium is to be that of a perfect theocracy, with Jesus the Christ as Lord and King. The more wicked part of the race shall have been destroyed; and during the period Satan shall be bound "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled"; while the just shall share with Christ in rightful rule and dominion. The righteous dead shall have come forth from their graves, while the wicked shall remain not resurrected until the thousand years be past. Men yet in the flesh shall mingle with immortalised beings; children shall grow to maturity and then die in peace or be changed to immortality "in the twinkling of an eye." Among the earliest revelations on this subject is that given to Enoch.

In these latter days the Lord has thus spoken: "And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth. And in that day the enmity of man, and the enmity of beasts, yea, the enmity of all flesh, shall cease from before my face. When the thousand years are passed, Satan shall be loosed for a little season, and the final test of man's integrity to God shall ensue. Such as are prone to impurity of heart shall yield to temptation while the righteous shall endure to the end. For the great Millennium, of which I have spoken by the mouth of my servants, shall come; And he that liveth in righteousness shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and the earth shall pass away so as by fire; And the wicked shall go away into unquenchable fire, and their end no man knoweth on earth, nor ever shall know, until they come before me in judgment. Hearken ye to these words: Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world. Treasure these things up in your hearts, and let the solemnities of eternity rest upon your minds." The vanquishment of Satan and his hosts shall be complete. The dead, small and great, all who have breathed the breath of life on earth, shall be resurrected--every soul that has tabernacled in flesh, whether good or evil--and shall stand before God, to be judged according to the record as written in the books. So shall be brought to glorious consummation the mission of the Christ who shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father spotless. The earth shall pass to its glorified and celestialized condition, an eternal abode for the exalted sons and daughters of God... redeemed, sanctified, and exalted through their Lord and God JESUS THE CHRIST.

 

[TjW]

And how does one objectively determine that the early part of the 21st century is "the latter days"?
Or the last half of the 19th century?
Or the entire 20th century?

 

[Empress]

Much can be found on the Millennium within LDS Teachings and Doctrines... including in Jesus The Christ by James E. Talmage, from where I have summarised and condensed the following:

*snip twit-speak*

Agatha asked very politely for your opinion, not Mormon copypasta. She's been extraordinarily nice to you. I would think you could do her the honor of a thoughtful reply.

 

[Pup]

Thanks for the thoughtful answer!

"Protestant/Catholic Christians don't seem to be embarrassed over Leviticus, and this seems no worse than anything in there."
Pup, I don't speak for others. I speak for myself.

Thanks for the thanks.

It seemed that you were projecting your own point of view onto Cat Tale's post, and therefore missing the jist of it.

Why didn't you simply post a link to what you wanted us to read?
In any case, it's clear that Mormons and non-Mormons have very different takes on blood atonement, but you know that because you've read the linked material presented here.

It seems Mormons claim blood atonement was never a teaching and certainly is not at the present time.

OK.
I'd be embarrassed to admit such a thing formed part of my religion, so I can accept that point of view.

As she explained, it was one of those wonky links that don't work directly, so she was using the standard solution of linking as close as possible, then explaining the final clicks.

So the situation was just the opposite: the link was presented as best it could be, to show that she does believe that one kind of blood atonement--executing murderers--was part of the 19th century church and she could provide evidence for it.

The trickier part--which may never be able to be proven--is whether the other kind of blood atonement, hunting down and shooting apostates, was official doctrine and ordered by the church.

I suspect that the closest we'll be able to get at this late date is the evidence that some Mormons did it on their own while claiming higher authority, but without conclusive evidence that it was actually made official doctrine and ordered by church leaders.

That may be due to men like Brigham Young and Joseph Smith secretly ordering murders while carefully creating plausible deniability, or it may be due to Young/Smith actually not ordering them and the deniability therefore being real. Or it may be a sin of omission: Young/Smith not actually ordering it, but not doing enough to stop it when murderous church members acted on their own in ways that benefitted the church.

I tend to lean toward the latter view, but then the question comes, how much were they holding a wild west tiger by the tail vs. how much could they have done to stop it.

What's ironic is that Protestant Christians were doing similar things to Mormons. Each side was spinning what was happening to try to gain the public relations advantage, and the public relations war is almost as interesting as what was actually happening.

There's a good article on the situation, from a folklorist's point of view, available here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ARDXAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA37&output=html

To give a sample from the article:

A footnote event in American frontier history--the Mormon War of 1838--provides an example of the way folklore can contribute to historiographic constructions of the past... While definite cultural and religious differences contributed to the violence, the similarities between Mormons and Missourians complicated the conflict by requiring each side to create a menacing Other. Both Mormons and Missourians reacted by constructing, through stories and rumors, a dangerous and strange opponent.

So that's a background worth keeping in mind, whenever one encounters the period Protestant spin today, which frames the conversation as: We should be asking if Mormons were hunting and killing apostate Mormons due to their weird belief in blood atonement, but Protestants hunting and killing Mormons was normal for the wild west because y'know, that's just what people did back then, so it's not really worth worrying about why.

That's the conversation that period Protestants would want us to be having. It's surprising, sometimes, how thoroughly and subtly the idea has spread and entered U.S. culture, that what Protestants do is the basis of normal.

 

[dafydd]

Much can be found on the Millennium within LDS Teachings and Doctrines... including in Jesus The Christ by James E. Talmage, from where I have summarised and condensed the following: The Millennium is to precede the time designated in scriptural phrase "the end of the world." The inauguration of Christ's reign on earth is to be the beginning of a period that shall be distinct in many important particulars from all precedent and subsequent time; and the Lord shall reign with His people a thousand years. The government of individuals, communities and nations throughout this Millennium is to be that of a perfect theocracy, with Jesus the Christ as Lord and King. The more wicked part of the race shall have been destroyed; and during the period Satan shall be bound "that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled"; while the just shall share with Christ in rightful rule and dominion. The righteous dead shall have come forth from their graves, while the wicked shall remain not resurrected until the thousand years be past. Men yet in the flesh shall mingle with immortalised beings; children shall grow to maturity and then die in peace or be changed to immortality "in the twinkling of an eye." Among the earliest revelations on this subject is that given to Enoch.

In these latter days the Lord has thus spoken: "And also that of element shall melt with fervent heat; and all things shall become new, that my knowledge and glory may dwell upon all the earth. And in that day the enmity of man, and the enmity of beasts, yea, the enmity of all flesh, shall cease from before my face. When the thousand years are passed, Satan shall be loosed for a little season, and the final test of man's integrity to God shall ensue. Such as are prone to impurity of heart shall yield to temptation while the righteous shall endure to the end. For the great Millennium, of which I have spoken by the mouth of my servants, shall come; And he that liveth in righteousness shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and the earth shall pass away so as by fire; And the wicked shall go away into unquenchable fire, and their end no man knoweth on earth, nor ever shall know, until they come before me in judgment. Hearken ye to these words: Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world. Treasure these things up in your hearts, and let the solemnities of eternity rest upon your minds." The vanquishment of Satan and his hosts shall be complete. The dead, small and great, all who have breathed the breath of life on earth, shall be resurrected--every soul that has tabernacled in flesh, whether good or evil--and shall stand before God, to be judged according to the record as written in the books. So shall be brought to glorious consummation the mission of the Christ who shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father spotless. The earth shall pass to its glorified and celestialized condition, an eternal abode for the exalted sons and daughters of God... redeemed, sanctified, and exalted through their Lord and God JESUS THE CHRIST.

Could you please address the questions put to you and stop posting this silly preaching?

 

[Janadele]

Janadele, from your quotes can I assume you also believe that we are all descended from Adam and Eve?

Mashuna, In Jesus The Christ by James E.Talmage Adam is referred to as the Patriach of the race, and Eve as the Mother of the race, and both are referred to as our first parents.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Mashuna, In Jesus The Christ by James E.Talmage Adam is referred to as the Patriach of the race, and Eve as the Mother of the race, and both are referred to as our first parents.

Please do not find this rude, but does that mean that you, personally, believe that "Adam" was an actual, flesh-and-blood person, as was "Eve"; and that all humans are physically descended from them? When do you think "Adam" and "Eve" existed?

 

[dafydd]

Mashuna, In Jesus The Christ by James E.Talmage Adam is referred to as the Patriach of the race, and Eve as the Mother of the race, and both are referred to as our first parents.

They are not our first parents, they didn't exist.

 

[tsig]

This is an extensive subject and much can be found on it within LDS Teachings and Doctrines, including in Jesus The Christ by James E. Talmage, from where I have summarised the following:

The date of the future advent of Christ has never been revealed to man. To the inquiring Apostles who laboured with the Master, He said: "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of heaven, but my Father only." In the present age, a similar declaration has been made by the Father: "I, the Lord God, have spoken it, but the hour and the day no man knoweth, neither the Angels in heaven, nor shall they know until He comes." He says to His Elders: Go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature; and after your testimony cometh wrath and indignation upon the people if this message is rejected; God will bring judgments upon the world until He has humbled the people to a state where they will be glad to receive it. The judgments of God shall stalk through the earth, decimating the human race, before the great day of the Lord shall come. Wars and rumours of wars, famine and pestilence, the voice of thunderings, and the voice of lightnings, and the voice of tempests, and the voice of the waves of the sea, heaving themselves beyond their bounds. The earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man, that shall cause groanings in the midst of her, and men shall fall upon the ground, and shall not be able to stand. and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light, and the moon shall be bathed in blood, and the stars shall become exceeding angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig tree. All things shall be in commotion; and surely, men's hearts shall fail them; for fear shall come upon all people. Fearful indeed will it be to individuals, families, and nations, who have so far sunk into sin as to have forfeited their claim to mercy. The time is not that of the final judgment--when the whole race of mankind shall stand in the resurrected state before the bar of God--nevertheless it shall be a time of unprecedented blessing unto the righteous, and of condemnation and vengeance upon the wicked.

With Christ shall come those who have already been resurrected; and His approach shall be the means of inaugurating a general resurrection of the righteous dead, while the pure and just who are still in the flesh shall be instantaneously changed from the mortal to the immortal state and shall be caught up with the newly resurrected to meet the Lord and His celestial company, and shall descend with Him. The coming of Christ in the last days, accompanied by the apostles of old and by the resurrected saints, is to mark the establishment of the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth. The faithful apostles who were with Jesus in His earthly ministry are to be enthroned as judges of the whole house of Israel; they will judge the Nephite Twelve, who in turn will be empowered to judge the descendants of Lehi, or that branch of the Israelitish nation which was established upon the western continent. The Kingdom of God is the Church established by divine authority upon the earth; this institution asserts no claim to temporal rule over nations; its sceptre of power is that of the Holy Priesthood, to be used in the preaching of the Gospel and in administering its ordinances for the salvation of mankind living and dead. The Kingdom of Heaven is the divinely ordained system of government and dominion in all matters, temporal and spiritual; this will be established on earth only when its rightful Head, the King of kings, Jesus the Christ, comes to reign. His administration will be one of order, operated through the agency of His commissioned representatives invested with the Holy Priesthood. When Christ appears in His glory, and not before, will be realised a complete fulfilment of the supplication: "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." The Kingdom of God has been established among men to prepare them for the Kingdom of Heaven which shall come; and in the blessed reign of Christ the King shall the two be made one. The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the Gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands until it has filled the whole earth; that the inhabitants thereof may receive it, and be prepared for the days to come, in the which the Son of man shall come down in heaven, clothed in the brightness of his glory, to meet the kingdom of God which is set up on the earth; Wherefore may the kingdom of God go forth, that the kingdom of heaven may come.

IOW god will punish us til we love obey him like any human tyrant. Why does your god sound so petty?



The Kingdom of God has been established among men

At least, those who survive the punishments.

 

[tsig]

The coming of Jesus Christ, and the purposes of it, was known and determined in the Pre Mortal Existence... and was known by the Book of Mormon Prophets. The Gospel has been Eternal Law since the Beginning of time. Adam possessed the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ... which he taught his posterity.

So the NT pre-existed Jesus' birth