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skyrider44 said:
"Sure did" what? Miss my post in which I quote from the title page of the BoM?
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I had already edited my post to clarify my meaning: Yes, I saw your post.

There is no dissonance between the eighth Article of Faith and the title page quotation.
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Most curious. The Article is clear that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are the words of God himself, but admits to human error only for the Bible. You, on the other hand, admit to human error in the Book of Mormon which the Article does not.

One of these things is not like the other.
 
skyrider44 said:
Perhaps you overreach when you write "everyone [emphasis added] has one thought. . . ."

The following from the title page of the BoM is noteworthy. It won't carry any weight with you, but that circumstance renders it nevertheless noteworthy.

And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God. . . .
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I've developed a few software products, and had other folks create the user manuals. I then review their work, noting where they got things completely wrong, somewhat wrong, or even wording that was ambiguous, and they would make changes, at which point we repeat the process until it's "just right". Then, we get "average" people that would use the product to read the manual, and note things they didn't understand or things that weren't clear, and we'd test them to be sure their understanding of the product was clear, then we'd make corrections to the manual as ncessessary. THEN, we release it to the masses.

If we imperfect humans take such care for a mere consumer product, why would god(s) take less care for our immortal souls?
 
skyrider44 said:
Perhaps I should "stoop" to give asydhouse a response (although I think I know why he keeps raising the "issue"). In Doctrine & Covenants 46: 11-14 (abridged): For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God. To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby. To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the son of God. . . . To others it is given to believe on their words, that they might also have eternal life if they continue to be faithful. [This theme continues for several more passages.]

It may come as a surprise to you, bruto, but faith is the first principle of the gospel, as stated in the 4th Article of Faith.

I make this post with some reluctance, because I suspect it will be mocked, derided, labeled as discriminatory, and otherwise trashed. I take comfort, however, in the fact that I have not returned the "favor" with respect to non-believers. Thus, in the 11th Article of Faith, we read: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may [emphasis added].
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:confused: Huh? You seem to be having a conversation in your head without bothering to cut me in on it! I have no idea what you think my questions are for. I just wanted the answers to the questions I asked! Two people having an exchange of information. Perhaps you think I know more about Mormonism than I do. I was too young to be told any "secrets", and I really don't have any interest in the LDS, to tell the truth.

Look, I asked you some questions which go right to the heart of the practice of the LDS, which is the interaction of the missionaries with the converts. You would rather quibble over semantics and bogus archaeology than talk heart to heart with me. Your condescending to eventually come back and insinuate some paranoia into our dialogue is not very satisfying to me. You did not actually address my questions.

This is typical in my experience of the insensitivity of church officials. When I turned up at the big building on Hyde Park in London with a need to check one last time if maybe spiritual laws were actually at work in this world that had bound me by magic to the mormon church, the president of the branch or whatever he was simply tried to sell me a Book of Mormon! Totally uninterested in my distressed mind. I had just explained to him that I had spent the previous two weeks hitch-hiking all the way back from India (because I had nothing but the clothes I stood up in) in order to find out if demons had been casting magic spells on me... clearly in deep distress, in need of compassionate human attention.... and he just tried to sell me a book of mormon. No interest or concern for my mental health or anything.

Skyrider shows the same level of sensitivity to my request for human contact in this thread.

Meanwhile, it's deemed ok for missionaries to make false promises. I know they even trick people into getting baptised. They just treat it like a game, getting more points by getting more baptisms. Callous young men indoctrinated with illiberal attitudes which always grated on my instinctive compassionate, socialistic (christian) instincts!

You have proved to me once again that the Mormon church is a false church.

And no need to check the facts to know it.

Bruto, thanks for your efforts to ease my mind... to answer in lieu of response from these two clowns... although at least janadele tried. But the pap she posted makes my eyes glaze over. Like eating cotton candy. The long and short of it seems to be that I'm to blame for blocking almighty god from doing as he promised through his missionaries. Well, I know I was as sincere as you can be, so I'm forced to conclude that mormons are all self-deceiving or lying, or sycophants. Hypocrites and liars or unthinking deluded fools.

Anyway, thanks Bruto, but I've completely lost interest in them now.

Oh, and it is science that has eased my mind about the possibility of magic interfering with my life. I am free of all doubt or worry. I am FREE. :)
 
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skyrider44 said:
By keeping the commandments and following the counsel of the Church's living prophet.
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This may be an interesting area to explore. I understand the basic relationship the Pope has to God according to the Roman Catholic Church. Is it about the same in the LDS Church?

How is the prophet selected? Is it a life-time appointment? What latitude does the prophet have in setting Church direction? How much of that is power vested solely in the prophet and how much is shared by a council?

Finally, what is the process for amending the text of the Book of Mormon and the Church's other holy texts?
 
skyrider44 said:
You betray untoward defensiveness.
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LOL! Have you read your own posts?

Do "we" have credible documentation that supports your statement--a statement that amounts to character assassinaton?
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Yes. Go back and reread the thread with an eye to the parts that are invisible to you.

You misperceive.
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Nope. You misstate.

I already have.
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Then we agree that the BoM isn't infallible because it was made up by a con man.
 
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The Greater Fool said:
I've developed a few software products, and had other folks create the user manuals. I then review their work, noting where they got things completely wrong, somewhat wrong, or even wording that was ambiguous, and they would make changes, at which point we repeat the process until it's "just right". Then, we get "average" people that would use the product to read the manual, and note things they didn't understand or things that weren't clear, and we'd test them to be sure their understanding of the product was clear, then we'd make corrections to the manual as ncessessary. THEN, we release it to the masses.

If we imperfect humans take such care for a mere consumer product, why would god(s) take less care for our immortal souls?
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On what basis--by what stretch of strained supposition-do you assume that the flaws in the BoM indicate that God is not adequately concerned about our immortal souls? Joseph Smith was a fallible mortal man. He didn't have a staff or the equipment to do even a fraction of what you describe above. Consider, too, that computer technology wasn't even on the horizon circa 1830.
 
skyrider44 said:
On what basis--by what stretch of strained supposition-do you assume that the flaws in the BoM indicate that God is not adequately concerned about our immortal souls? Joseph Smith was a fallible mortal man. He didn't have a staff or the equipment to do even a fraction of what you describe above. Consider, too, that computer technology wasn't even on the horizon circa 1830.
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God needs a computer to ensure it's message is kept clear and unchanged?

The Christian god has innumerable angels, surely they could proof read?

God would make errors that need correcting? Really?

God(s), being perfect, I would think could craft a perfect (in all respects) message the first time. In point of theology, isn't this what that preface note indicates?

Why wouldn't / didn't god(s) ensure their message was clearly and correctly transmitted by it's chosen messenger?
 
skyrider44 said:
I can't find the verse right now, but in the BoM Nephi refers to those who are "past learning"; in other words, they are not--and will not be--receptive to accepting the words of Mormon prophets.

Some on this forum are "past learning" about the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean no disrespect, but it is as if their minds are hermetically sealed re. Mormonism. Consequently, this venue is not the place to win converts.
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I'd listen but you've got some problems to overcome first. Without establishing that there was barley cultivated in the pre-Colombian New World the book has to have been made up. Address the inconsistencies related to agriculture and technology and then we can look at what your prophet had to say. I will admit that without an adequate explanation to those problems you're pretty well dead in the water.
 
skyrider44 said:
On what basis--by what stretch of strained supposition-do you assume that the flaws in the BoM indicate that God is not adequately concerned about our immortal souls? Joseph Smith was a fallible mortal man. He didn't have a staff or the equipment to do even a fraction of what you describe above. Consider, too, that computer technology wasn't even on the horizon circa 1830.
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The argument makes sense to me. I'm surprised that it appears incomprehensible to you.

If I (like billions of others) have an immortal soul which would be better off if I were to start to believe and join the LDS, then it would obviously serve that purpose better for the BoM to be persuasive to non-Mormons. If God had intended this, then He could have picked a more reliable agent than He did.

The book appears to me to be a simple fraud. Is that God's plan, or did He pick the wrong guy to write it?

I do not see the relevance of the unavailability of computers in the 1830s.
 
skyrider44 said:
By keeping the commandments and following the counsel of the Church's living prophet.
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That's really no answer because all you've done is replace the BoM with the commandments and the prophet so the same question applies, Which commandments and which prophet are of god and which are of men?
 
jsfisher said:
Assume you are posed a question. Would you go to a tap dancing studio to respond?
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Judging from the posts here he's taken a lot of verbal tap dancing lessons, that's what apologetics is after all.
 
skyrider44 said:
On what basis--by what stretch of strained supposition-do you assume that the flaws in the BoM indicate that God is not adequately concerned about our immortal souls? Joseph Smith was a fallible mortal man. He didn't have a staff or the equipment to do even a fraction of what you describe above. Consider, too, that computer technology wasn't even on the horizon circa 1830.
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We both agree on that, what puzzles me is that you can't see the logical consequence of that fact.
 
Hokulele said:
Why didn't God just tell Smith, "Hey, you missed a bit."? Why wait years, and still be vague?
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You mean:

"Forsooth, and it shall come to pass that thou mayst have overlooketh some small thing."


There that's more prophetical.:)
 
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skyrider44 said:
Joseph Smith was a fallible mortal man. He didn't have a staff or the equipment to do even a fraction of what you describe above.
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One can easily think of better ways to distribute the infallible word of a god. Make the putative plates available for everyone to see and read for themselves. Why would an infallible god use a proven con-man as its prophet and deliberately introduce errors into the narrative that would seem to point to a fraud and a hoax?

Consider, too, that computer technology wasn't even on the horizon circa 1830.
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It's a good thing it wasn't or Joseph Smith would have had the native Americans using it.
 
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