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I thought that the BOM was dictated by an infallible god. Are you saying that it is Smith's work of fiction?
Thats a good point you just made. I mean god is supposed to be perfect and all knowing. I mean I was taught god knew everything.

God gave Joseph Smith some magic seer stones and a gold tablet of scripture which the seer stones allowed him to translate. The original BOM had spelling and punctuation errors which have since been corrected.

Were the seer stones flawed and didn't show the translation except in a semi illiterate way? Is god semi illiterate himself? Why the errors if Smith was copying through the stones instead of writing them himself?

Much of what I saw in the BOM was flat out incorrect. DNA proves it and so does many other things.

I personally don't want to "understand" some farm boys fiction.
 
Agreed, and I know you are not arguing that it was impossible. But just to be clear, hunters routinely killed and transported large game from those same woods.

Okay; good point. So assuming he was experienced with moving large, dead weights, he would be able to bring them home with him.

The rest of my questions still stand. Did he weigh them? Measure them? Count them? Were they solid gold; and how did he determine that?

Tell me more about the plates themselves, please?
 
Okay; good point. So assuming he was experienced with moving large, dead weights, he would be able to bring them home with him.

The rest of my questions still stand. Did he weigh them? Measure them? Count them? Were they solid gold; and how did he determine that?

Tell me more about the plates themselves, please?

There were no plates.
 
I can't find the verse right now, but in the BoM Nephi refers to those who are "past learning"; in other words, they are not--and will not be--receptive to accepting the words of Mormon prophets.

Some on this forum are "past learning" about the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean no disrespect, but it is as if their minds are hermetically sealed re. Mormonism. Consequently, this venue is not the place to win converts.

Is that rather like those whose minds are hermetically sealed to reason and facts and logic and reality?
 
Tell me more about the plates themselves, please?
Granting for a moment that there were plates, the apologetics:

Weight of Gold Plates

“engraven on plates which had the appearance of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches long and not quite so thick as common tin.... The volume was something near six inches in thickness....”(Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, v3:9, March 1, 1842, 707.) For years the critics have claimed that there could not have been any “golden plates” because the plates would have been to heavy for Joseph to carry.

...this mass of gold plates, as they were not so compactly pressed as boxed tin, would have weighed nearly 200 lbs. (Hyde, 244.) If the plates were gold plates of the dimensions indicated they must have weighed between 175 and 225 pounds. (Whalen, 27.)
 
maybe they were made from iron pyrities


google the common name
 
Agreed, and I know you are not arguing that it was impossible. But just to be clear, hunters routinely killed and transported large game from those same woods.

Like horses with seven-point racks?
 
Granting for a moment that there were plates, the apologetics:

Weight of Gold Plates

Ah...yes; thank-you for that link!

As a kid, I did a LOT of drywashing, sluicing and gold panning with my father. He had chronic gold fever, and so was forever searching for the 'big one'. He found several nuggets over the years, and they were always deceptively heavy, even when filled with impurities. They're hard to carry and hard to handle.

As a result, I actually HATE gold.
 
Okay...everyone...I *know* the plates most likely never existed. But for the sake of a well-rounded education...I'm interested in hearing more about them, okay?
 
Okay...everyone...I *know* the plates most likely never existed. But for the sake of a well-rounded education...I'm interested in hearing more about them, okay?

After that we'll move on to the Tooth Fairy and really round off your education! :)
 
After that we'll move on to the Tooth Fairy and really round off your education! :)

Works for me. :D

Here is something that was giving me pause, and I see RandFan's link has brought it up. A while ago, I read about some old jars that were found...somewhere...that *might* have been used for electroplating. Also, somewhere...in among my father's tens of thousands of possessions, he has an old coin that someone electroplated to make it look like it was gold coin. I had a half-formed idea that maybe JS had attempted some similiar feat. I believe other people have had the same thought:

From RandFan's link:

Heather Lechtman, in a 1984 article in Scientific America, addressed the recent discovery of several large metal objects in South America. Most of these objects were made out of hammered sheet copper. When these copper sheets were first unearthed they were covered with a green corrosion. Once the corrosion was removed, however, they discovered that the copper had originally been covered with a thin layer of silver or gold so that these sheets “appeared to be made entirely out of those precious metals....” (Lechtman, 56.) Lechtman explains that the most important alloy discovered at these South American sites was a mixture of copper and gold known as “tumbaga.” When copper and gold (the only two colored metals known to man) are melted together they mix, and stay mixed after they cool and solidify. This alloy was known not only in South America, but in Mesoamerica as well. (Ibid., 60.) Tumbaga ranged from 97 percent gold to 97 percent copper with traces of up to 18 percent of other metals, impurities, or silver. Once the gold finish was applied to the tumbaga it would appear to be made of solid gold. Putnam explains that tumbaga “the magic metal, can be cast, drawn, hammered, gilded, soldered, welded, plated, hardened, annealed, polished, engraved, embossed, and inlaid.” (Putnam, 789, 828-829.) Nevertheless, tumbaga will destroy itself if it is not stored properly. It is therefore interesting to note that the Book of Mormon plates were laid atop two stones which lay across the bottom of the stone box so that the plates would not be exposed to water or dirt.

Edited to ask: What happened to the stone box? :confused:
 
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Okay; good point. So assuming he was experienced with moving large, dead weights, he would be able to bring them home with him.

The rest of my questions still stand. Did he weigh them? Measure them? Count them? Were they solid gold; and how did he determine that?

Tell me more about the plates themselves, please?

DragonLady, here's a site that has complied several different "witness" statements as to the weight of the plates as well, as some more information on how he received them, and where he hid them until he could get them home. The story of Joseph tucking them under his arm and running with them is quite amusing.

http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm
 
DragonLady, here's a site that has complied several different "witness" statements as to the weight of the plates as well, as some more information on how he received them, and where he hid them until he could get them home. The story of Joseph tucking them under his arm and running with them is quite amusing.

http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm

Oh my.

Doesn't that belong in the "really funny jokes" thread? :eye-poppi

Having been born a cripple, that whole running-through-the-woods scenario is hilarious to me. :D
 
I'm damn glad the LDS exists. As someone has already pointed out, Joseph Smiff's errors and lies are so recent and obvious that the origins of the entire religion are revealed: it's a structure of dirt and ashes, as crude as a cargo cult, and sure to erode into nothing as time passes.

It was tough luck for J. Smith to have started his business in the age of the printing press -- hell, he lasted into the age of the telegraph, railroad, and camera. His schemes were publicised immediately and widely; his little tricks were exposed at once; his sham was lit up in a nearly-modern glare of publicity and discussion. Thus we know plenty about how a religion can be started up by just one man's ambition and greed. It's too bad we can't know as much about Jesus or Mohammed -- but I doubt we'd be very surprised if we did.

Nowadays we see these tinpot messiahs come and go pretty frequently. They do their portion of harm, and then they trail off into old news.

If Skyrider is still here: Anti-Mormons are not at all fervid, and certainly not blind. What they feel -- and I should know -- is amusement, scorn, exasperation, and a lot of pity for the millions who still lie motionless in their Mormonoid delusion.

Odd about pity. We're assured that it's good to feel pity. I wonder why it's such an unpleasant sensation.
 
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DragonLady, here's a site that has complied several different "witness" statements as to the weight of the plates as well, as some more information on how he received them, and where he hid them until he could get them home. The story of Joseph tucking them under his arm and running with them is quite amusing.

http://mormonthink.com/runningweb.htm
The witnesses couldn't see the plates but they knew how heavy the plates were, therefore: "So using the statements of the witnesses, it seems logical that the plates weighed about 50 pounds give or take 10 pounds. We summarily reject the critics' arguments that the plates must have weighed 200 pounds."

That's some skepticism and critical thinking.

Joe: I have a full grown elephant that weighs 50 pounds.
Bob: That's not possible.
Tim: Here is a pillow case with a full grown elephant in it.
Bob: Wow, you are right, it is about 50 pounds.
:rolleyes:

Edited to add: Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.
 
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