LDS

[Last of the Fraggles]

Now isn't that just darn right convenient...

I'm reminded of some words from a country song.. " .... I tell the truth, 'cept when I lie. "

Not only convenient but downright stupid.

'Men make mistakes, but God doesn't. If there is something wrong in the book it's because men make mistakes, but the rest is the perfect word of God.'

How do you know this and decide which is which?

'Men tell me'

But didn't you just say men can be wrong about this stuff?

'Get out of my sight, you rude incivil Anti-Mormon!'

 

[RandFan]

Any LDS member who does not support the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles and the Doctrines and Teachings of the Church have a moral obligation and responsibility to remove their own name from the membership.

No. There is no such responsibility. I never signed a contract. I never agreed to any terms of membership. I utterly reject that as an attempt to shift the burden of telling the truth to others. The Church knows what the truth is. They chose not to tell it.

 

[Pup]

Back on topic,

I am no Mormon expert (most of my knowledge is based on questions asked of a mormon solder when I was in the army) but I was under the impression that the official word on what happened to the "Golden Tablets" was that JS lost em. On this thread I head something about "ascending to heaven" so am I wrong about my "lost" assumption?

He didn't lose them in the sense of "where the heck did I put my car keys?" but he lost them in the sense of lost ownership of them. He claimed that an angel took them back, without going into detail, but other accounts are more elaborate, with him and several other church members literally returning them to a cave in the New York hill where he supposedly found them in the first place.

Below are several accounts from some anti-Mormon website sponsored by some university out west called Brigham Young or something.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=13&num=1&id=338

 

[RandFan]

I started this thread to answer off topic questions which were being asked in another thread.

This is a skeptics site, not a "preach to your heart's content without criticism" site.

If I go to a Mormon website and offer to answer questions about atheism I damn well ought to plan for criticism.

 

[RoboTimbo]

And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God. . . .

Nobody here has been blaming any god(s) for anything. We know the BoM was written by a lying con-man and pedophile. I'm glad to see that you understand that.

So why don't you just admit to the clear errors in the BoM?

 

[skyrider44]

Because you are a Mormon ..

Are you saying you are not? ( interested in winning converts )

I can't find the verse right now, but in the BoM Nephi refers to those who are "past learning"; in other words, they are not--and will not be--receptive to accepting the words of Mormon prophets.

Some on this forum are "past learning" about the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean no disrespect, but it is as if their minds are hermetically sealed re. Mormonism. Consequently, this venue is not the place to win converts.

 

[pakeha]

...I started this thread to answer off topic questions which were being asked in another thread. The purpose of this thread was to present and discuss the actual teachings and doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not to present anti-Mormon propaganda and literature. My continual requests for another thread be created for such posts have been ignored. I can therefore no longer participate in this thread.

Does this mean I'll not receive an answer to my questions?

 

[Pixel42]

It seems to me that it is only Mormons whose minds are hermetically sealed re. Mormonism. I doubt there is any non-Mormon contributing to this thread who wouldn't be willing to listen to and objectively consider arguments and evidence supporting Mormon teachings and beliefs, should any such ever be offered. Clearly the reverse cannot be said.

 

[skyrider44]

Nobody here has been blaming any god(s) for anything.

You betray untoward defensiveness.

: We know the BoM was written by a lying con-man and pedophile.

Do "we" have credible documentation that supports your statement--a statement that amounts to character assassinaton?

: I'm glad to see that you understand that.

You misperceive.

: So why don't you just admit to the clear errors in the BoM?

I already have.

 

[bruto]

I can't find the verse right now, but in the BoM Nephi refers to those who are "past learning"; in other words, they are not--and will not be--receptive to accepting the words of Mormon prophets.

Some on this forum are "past learning" about the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean no disrespect, but it is as if their minds are hermetically sealed re. Mormonism. Consequently, this venue is not the place to win converts.

That's true enough anyway. Especially if you present the flawed texts under the pretext that faith requires you must accept them all without question, and that the claim of truth and prophecy you would have us accept is contained only in the content of the claims. I wonder here if you even understand the double bind here.

 

[skyrider44]

It seems to me that it is only Mormons whose minds are hermetically sealed re. Mormonism.

You're free to speculate ("seems to me"), but in a typical gospel doctrine class (at least the ones I have attended) it is not uncommon for members to ask the teacher some challenging questions.

: I doubt there is any non-Mormon contributing to this thread who wouldn't be willing to listen to and objectively consider arguments and evidence supporting Mormon teachings and beliefs, should any such ever be offered. Clearly the reverse cannot be said.

Again, you're free to speculate.

 

[jsfisher]

Some on this forum are "past learning" about the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean no disrespect, but it is as if their minds are hermetically sealed re. Mormonism. Consequently, this venue is not the place to win converts.

I see you continue to riddle your posts with condescension. That aside, the meat of your post is a first-class cop-out. "If it's hard, it's no worth trying at all."

 

[Pixel42]

in a typical gospel doctrine class (at least the ones I have attended) it is not uncommon for members to ask the teacher some challenging questions.

Which is all we're doing. Plausible answers come there none.

Is the same true of your gospel doctrine classes? Are questions such as the ones we're asking encouraged and explored? What answers are given, as I can't imagine the pathetic rationalisations we've been pointed to would be considered adequate to a Mormon intelligent and informed enough to ask them, any more than they are to us.

 

[jsfisher]

So why don't you just admit to the clear errors in the BoM?

I already have.

Did you? I may have missed it, but I do recall you alluding to it, but never quite stating it directly. No matter. You have now. That still leaves the question, though, of how do you reconcile your belief the Book of Mormons has errors with Article 8 of the Articles of Faith?

 

[skyrider44]

. . . as I can't imagine. . . .

I'm sorry, but what you can't imagine matters not one whit to me.

 

[skyrider44]

. . . how do you reconcile your belief the Book of Mormons has errors with Article 8 of the Articles of Faith?

Did you miss my post in which I quoted from the BoM's title page the following?

And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God. . . .

 

[jsfisher]

Did you miss my post in which I quoted from the BoM's title page the following?

And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God. . . .

Sure did, and did you not see my post quoting the eighth article of the Articles of Faith?

ETA: The "Sure did" was meant as in "I sure did see it", but that is not at all obvious from the context.

 

[skyrider44]

I see you continue to riddle your posts with condescension. That aside, the meat of your post is a first-class cop-out. "If it's hard, it's no worth trying at all."

Assume you are a fly fisherman. Would you go to Salt Flats to catch trout?

 

[tsig]

I'm sorry, but what you can't imagine matters not one whit to me.

In the BoM how do we tell what are the errors of men and which are the truths of god?

 

[jsfisher]

Assume you are a fly fisherman. Would you go to Salt Flats to catch trout?

Assume you are posed a question. Would you go to a tap dancing studio to respond?