School shooting: but don't mention guns!

[zeggman]

I think there's a difference here between use and utility. A gun is a weapon; a car is not. That a car may be utilized as a weapon is hardly relevant.

A gun is only a weapon if it's being used as a weapon. If it's being used for target shooting, it's no more a weapon than a basketball aimed at a basket.

 

[zeggman]

I am sure it is in reference to this

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...s-database-thirty-eight-states-have-that-now/

"In his Friday morning news conference, National Rifle Association chief executive Wayne LaPierre floated the idea of a national registry of the mentally ill as one way to stem gun violence.

“How can we possibly even guess how many, given our nation’s refusal to create an active national database of the mentally ill?” he asked."

The NRA's call to create such a database is just as objectionable as their scapegoating of video games and violent movies, and I oppose it.

 

[Nessie]

.....

My question, which may not have been clear, is what difference justifies such advocacy in the case of guns, but not in the cases of pools and cars. Your answer offered one possible difference, my response explored whether that difference really justified additional restrictions on guns. I am inclined to think it did not.

I don't know of any laws designed to make pools safer, but there are plenty of laws that have made cars safer. Car makers have also found public demand increased for safer cars, so there was a business case to make them safer with air bags, crumple zones etc.

There are various academic studies out there (I linked to some in another post, I cannot even remember if it was this thread) which show the likes of better security for guns reduce accidents, thefts and suicides.

Is it really that restrictive on gun owners for them to do more to make sure their guns are safe?

 

[zeggman]

This vague appeal to freedom needs further defining. The citizens of the UK are free to use guns, swimming pools and cars. We manage that with far fewer shootings as we already know and road deaths

UK 4.8 per 100,000 to the USA's 13.9 per 100,000

and drownings,

UK 0.4 per 100,000 to the USA's 1.2 per 100,000

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/world-health-rankings

I am quite sure that is because we accept more responsibility for the negative consequences of freedom which are high death rates from shooting, drowning and cars crashing. But in no way does that diminish our actual freedom to shoot, swim or drive and it improves our freedom to live safely compared to the USA.

Or it could be down to many people getting rid of garden ponds, which were a popular feature in many gardens back in the 1970s/80s. Their popularity fell out of favour after a number of incidents with young children drowning. A well known in Scotland TV presenter Muriel Gray's child ended up with brain damage after falling into a garden pond.

All good points, and they suggest that education rather than bans can be an effective policy for altering outcomes.

 

[thaiboxerken]

So, because it's not the topic, we cannot use a comparison?

Sure you can, but it's not a relevant comparison.

 

[thaiboxerken]

What in the blue hell is wrong with you guys ? When did I say anything about physical assault ? These posts are getting seriously ridiculous. The habit people have here of adding content to other people's posts is getting in the insane territory.

The scary part is that those people have guns.

 

[zeggman]

I don't know of any laws designed to make pools safer, but there are plenty of laws that have made cars safer. Car makers have also found public demand increased for safer cars, so there was a business case to make them safer with air bags, crumple zones etc.

There are various academic studies out there (I linked to some in another post, I cannot even remember if it was this thread) which show the likes of better security for guns reduce accidents, thefts and suicides.

Is it really that restrictive on gun owners for them to do more to make sure their guns are safe?

There are laws which make pools safer, by making them more difficult to access by unsupervised children.

I would support reasonable proposals which encourage gun manufacturers and gun owners to insure their guns are safe. Some such proposals (such as one earlier in this thread, which advocated keeping guns locked up at the local police station) are not reasonable, but I'm sure plenty could be devised which are effective without being overly restrictive.

 

[Nessie]

Here are the UK laws which make guns safer

1 - all gun owners are registered and subject to background checks to ensure they are not criminals or mad. That initially takes about a month. There is a renewal every 5 years where pretty much the same checks are completed.

2 - all gun owners must list their guns and they are kept on a register. If one owner sells to another, both must have a relevant licence and both must inform the police of the sale. That way in the UK we know who has what gun and where it is.

3 - all gun owners are recorded on the same database where previous convictions are recorded. That way if a gun owner commits a crime, it flags up straight away and their licence and suitability is reviewed.

4 - all gun owners are required to self report health issues which may affect their suitability. If the police become aware of any issues, their licence and suitability is reviewed.

5 - all guns not actually in use must be kept secured in a gun cabinet of a prescribed type hidden in the owners house. A stolen gun must be reported immediately and the gun owners storage and licence and suitability will be reviewed.

6 - use of gun in self defence is very limited and any instance is treated as a criminal investigation to assess the gun owners licence and suitability. Scaring off potential criminals with a gun is not considered a suitable use for a gun.

7 - the maximum number of rounds is two for a shotgun and three for a rifle before reloading.

8 - people cannot stockpile ammo and many are limited to the smallest box you can buy, so buy 50 and keep 100 is standard. Certainly no one has thousands of rounds at anyone time.

9 - any land over which shooting takes place is assessed by the police as to its suitability. That often just involves phoning the land owner and checking its acreage, or confirming membership of a shooting club. But it means unless you have somewhere safe to shoot you cannot have a gun.

10 - transportation of guns is done with guns covered, ammo separate and pretty much in secret. You only take your gun to where you are shooting and then home again, nothing else.

So we have more responsibilities than Americans do to enjoy our freedom to be armed and shoot. But that enhances our freedom to be safe from guns, which many American gun owners don't think is a freedom their fellow citizens should enjoy.

 

[joesixpack]

Isn't anonymity great ?

Telling someone that they're deluded out of the blue like that without asking for context is easy when you're sitting behind a computer screen, is what I meant.

What in the blue hell is wrong with you guys ? When did I say anything about physical assault ? These posts are getting seriously ridiculous. The habit people have here of adding content to other people's posts is getting in the insane territory.

I try to be as respectful of people on the internet as I am in face to face conversation. When someone accuses me of taking advantage of anonymity while "sitting behind a computer screen" to make my position clear, it implies that there would be other consequences were we face to face. What would those consequences be? A verbal riposte? A reply? Are you unable to answer my argument without knowing my name and address? Are you unable to sufficiently respond without being in the same room as I? What the hell is your implication? Please explain to my why my anonymity* is something I should value in the context of this conversation if not some undisclosed consequence outside of normal discourse.



*Quite frankly, it wouldn't be too terribly difficult to determine exactly who I am and what my home address and business phone number was if you had any experience with the advance search features on Google.

 

[AlBell]

There are laws which make pools safer, by making them more difficult to access by unsupervised children.

...

In addition to proper fencing, new pools in one jurisdiction I'm aware of are required to have two main drain inlets so a child cannot be held at pool bottom by the suction of water entering a single main drain.

 

[joesixpack]

...
Education has been clearly shown to work for drugs, alcohol and sex. So ...

I think that would be a very good idea.

What I do not understand about the USA is that the same people who are opposed to gun control are also those who are opposed to mental health services.

I don't think this is true. There are plenty of people on the left (and on the extreme left as well) who support the current interpretation of the 2nd amendment, and at the same time advocate for greater access to health care (including mental health).

Having said that, I'll now make my own sweeping generalization about "gun safety" being taught in the schools. Many of the same people who would condemn gun safety classes in schools are the same people who endorse sex education for it's effectiveness in preventing teen pregnancy.

The difference between "self defense" and "murder" is actually something a lot of people don't understand. Education in high schools would probably make a difference. Many murders (gun and non-gun) are committed by people who think that they are defending themselves. They are, in fact, defending only their pride or their ego. I can't help but think that if some time were spent explaining this to teen aged boys, the homicide rate would budge downward to some degree.

 

[joesixpack]

Sure you can, but it's not a relevant comparison.

Not relevant because it's not as emotionally charged?

 

[zooterkin]

5 - all guns not actually in use must be kept secured in a gun cabinet of a prescribed type hidden in the owners house. A stolen gun must be reported immediately and the gun owners storage and licence and suitability will be reviewed.

Further, guns and ammo must be stored separately, and the storage must be approved by the police. More info here.

 

[Nessie]

I am now being ignored by two gun owners on the forum. They just cannot accept how their attitudes are easily held up to ridicule and criticism. They like to dish it out, but cannot take it. They hate the fact that the USA is soundly trounced by other countries in terms of a responsible attitude to guns and their use.

 

[DavidJames]

Lets put to rest the gun nutz mantra about those who favor additional gun regulation are driven by emotions as opposed to their own cool logic.

Why do you own guns?

Target practice - Joy, pleasure, satisfaction of improving? All emotions.
Hunting - Challenge, thrill of the hunt, pleasure? All emotions
Protection for others - Fear? Emotion
Protection from the government - Fear? Emotion

Fact it folks, emotion is an integral part of who we are. Just because you like to own guns, doesn't mean you also aren't subject to emotions. Stop pretending only those who disagree with you are motivated by emotions.

Personally I feel my emotions are more practically applied to helping reduce unnecessary death, injury and human misery then target practice or fear of the U.S. government.

 

[joesixpack]

Lets put to rest the gun nutz mantra about those who favor additional gun regulation are driven by emotions as opposed to their own cool logic.

Why do you own guns?

Target practice - Joy, pleasure, satisfaction of improving? All emotions.
Hunting - Challenge, thrill of the hunt, pleasure? All emotions
Protection for others - Fear? Emotion
Protection from the government - Fear? Emotion

Fact it folks, emotion is an integral part of who we are. Just because you like to own guns, doesn't mean you also aren't subject to emotions. Stop pretending only those who disagree with you are motivated by emotions.

Personally I feel my emotions are more practically applied to helping reduce unnecessary death, injury and human misery then target practice or fear of the U.S. government.

This would be an argument if gun ownership were not considered a civil right by the US constitution. If and when you change that you may argue all you wish about the emotional content of gun owners personal decisions.

No Jew in the US is required to justify his choice to attend synagogue, no writer is required to justify his personal desire to publish and distribute his work. That's because those rights are guaranteed. Are you asked to justify why you say "no" when a police officer asks if he may search your car or home without a warrant? Certainly not. Thank the bill of rights for that too. How about when you decline to take the stand and testify in your own criminal trial? Same thing.

You may argue that this right is unpleasant to you or unpopular, but that is irrelevant. The reason they're called "rights" is because they apply to you in spite of what the majority wishes. I owe you zero excuses or reasons as to why I chose or chose not to own a firearm. Please stop attacking gun ownership because you can't understand people's stated reasons for wanting a gun. If you don't think there's a good reason to own a gun then don't buy one. If you don't like my reason for buying one, that's actually not my problem, just like it's not my problem if you don't like my atheism, what books I read, or whether or not I submit to an unwarranted search by law enforcement.

There are currently a number of regulations and laws dealing with firearms. The sad fact is that they are often inconsistently and incompetently enforced. More regulations won't change that. Perhaps if you lobbied for stricter enforcement of existing laws there would be some measurable changes. Better still, if instead of wringing your hands about the tools of violence you started looking at the root causes of violence then you'd see even more significant changes. There is ample evidence that poverty has a greater role to play in violence than the mere presence of guns. Why don't you acknowledge this fact?

 

[Nessie]

Americans bought 10.8 million guns last year

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-ne...0800000-guns-sold-in-the-usa-in-2011_01212012

It is no wonder there are so many problems with guns when 10.8 million more went into circulation in just one year. No matter how many rules and regulations there are are, it is impossible to ensure all of those guns are responsibly used and stored.

 

[joesixpack]

Americans bought 10.8 million guns last year

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-ne...0800000-guns-sold-in-the-usa-in-2011_01212012

It is no wonder there are so many problems with guns when 10.8 million more went into circulation in just one year. No matter how many rules and regulations there are are, it is impossible to ensure all of those guns are responsibly used and stored.

So the murder rate went up proportionately? No. By all measures the homicide RATE has continued to drop in spite of liberalization of gun laws, in spite of the end of the assault weapons ban, and in spite of all the high profile crimes.

The crime/murder rate changes independently of the rate of gun ownership in the US. Please address that issue before you condemn the nation for our "failed" gun culture, as it seems that our crime rate continues to decline through this putative failure.

 

[Nessie]

This would be an argument if gun ownership were not considered a civil right by the US constitution. If and when you change that you may argue all you wish about the emotional content of gun owners personal decisions.

No Jew in the US is required to justify his choice to attend synagogue, no writer is required to justify his personal desire to publish and distribute his work. That's because those rights are guaranteed. Are you asked to justify why you say "no" when a police officer asks if he may search your car or home without a warrant? Certainly not. Thank the bill of rights for that too. How about when you decline to take the stand and testify in your own criminal trial? Same thing.

You may argue that this right is unpleasant to you or unpopular, but that is irrelevant. The reason they're called "rights" is because they apply to you in spite of what the majority wishes. I owe you zero excuses or reasons as to why I chose or chose not to own a firearm. Please stop attacking gun ownership because you can't understand people's stated reasons for wanting a gun. If you don't think there's a good reason to own a gun then don't buy one. If you don't like my reason for buying one, that's actually not my problem, just like it's not my problem if you don't like my atheism, what books I read, or whether or not I submit to an unwarranted search by law enforcement.

There are currently a number of regulations and laws dealing with firearms. The sad fact is that they are often inconsistently and incompetently enforced. More regulations won't change that. Perhaps if you lobbied for stricter enforcement of existing laws there would be some measurable changes. Better still, if instead of wringing your hands about the tools of violence you started looking at the root causes of violence then you'd see even more significant changes. There is ample evidence that poverty has a greater role to play in violence than the mere presence of guns. Why don't you acknowledge this fact?

The right to own a gun is enjoyed by people in most countries in the world. American gun owners seem to forget that and make out theirs is somehow a sacred and special right denied to others, so in desperate need of preservation.


With different rights come different restrictions depending on how exercising the right affects others. The right to worship does not affect others. The right to freedom of speech can affect others, so there are some restrictions such as libel and indecency. The right to possess a gun has clear affects on others due to the dangers a gun poses. There have to be restrictions and the fact is the way the USA has done those restrictions is a fail due to the large number of deaths.

If few guns over the years had ended up in the hands of criminals or nuts, there would be no great issue. But fact is the American gun owners, sellers and makers have ruined it for themselves by letting so many guns get into the wrong hands.

I am sorry, but too many American gun sellers, makers and owners have abused their right by showing scant regard for their responsibilities by letting too many guns into the hands of criminals and nuts and shooting too many innocents.

To compound that lack of responsibility people who don't have guns have to look on as the likes of the NRA blames everyone and everything thing else for the problem they introduced into society. Its not guns, its video games, poverty, its crime.

Fact is the pro gun lobby have made a disgusting bed and expect everyone to lie in it.

 

[DC]

USAians are a good bunch for the most part but, for some unknown reason, when it comes to guns, some of them just lose all perspective, it seems. Of course, some just like to build false personas as Internet Tough Guys as in, "Oh, look at me! I have badass guns and you will take them from me when you pry them from my cold, dead hands! 2nd Amendment! My forefathers! Look at me talking tough on the Internet! You hate us for our freedom! I'm so tough with my badass guns! Watch me Google up stuff that I actually know nothing about but I can fool some of the people some of the time so I'll do it anyway! USA! USA! USA! Forefathers! Freedom! I have the right to defend myself with superior firepower at the grocery store! Or at a stop light! Blah blah blah" nonsense.

I have no time for Internet Tough Guys and no time for people who try to manufacture false personas online. They are useless, senseless, liars who do not deserve the time of day.

So leaving those aside, the USAian pro-gun folks who are genuine in their beliefs are the ones that I would like to try to understand. I would really like to be able to understand why they want to continue the proliferation of guns in their country when it seems obvious to most people looking in that it is a real and serious problem.

It seems that many USAians are so terrified of their fellow USAians with guns that they've talked themselves into arming themselves to address their fear of their fellow countrymen and women, and that they have lost the ability or the will to try to actually deal with the gun proliferation problem that they have created and compounded over the years. Thus creating a self-fulfilling death spiral, so to speak.

But as an eternal optimist, I do hope that the smarter (and less fearful and less paranoid) USAians will prevail and begin to brainstorm ways to reduce the gun proliferation in the USA, because I think that really needs to happen if they ever want to see a reduction in gun crimes and gun deaths in their country. It's not a matter of "freedom"; it's a matter of a whole lot of USAians dying every year because a whole lot of other USAians are scared and paranoid and arming themselves needlessly, thus making guns so prolific and readily available that what might have otherwise been a mere argument turns into a murder, etc.

I really like my neighbours to the south for the most part, and I have many, many USAian friends, but I abhor that so many USAians embrace a gun culture that will always do more harm than good in modern society.

Well we ought to not mention the elefant in the room here, but anyway.
i am actually not convinced that the problem is with ownership of those thing we shall not mention here.

in my country we are actually handing out fully automatic assualt rifles to almost every male. you are even mandated to shoot with them at a range once a year. and recent vote showed, the people actually want to keep it that way. And while there are cases where those rifles have been abused, mainly they get abused for suicide (which i see not as a problem, the with what they commit suicide is not a problem for me, that so many are commiting suicide is a problem) we just don't seem to have this kind of incidents like we hear so often from the US.
sure we are a tiny country and maybe not comparable regardless of per capita statistics etc.
but sometimes i wonder if its more a cultural problem. like here people are more like "oh f... you all i go home take my rifle and commit suicide" while in the US it seem more often to be "oh f.... you all, i grab my gun commit suicide after i took as many i can with me".

its strange.