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School shooting: but don't mention guns!

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But as an eternal optimist, I do hope that the smarter (and less fearful and less paranoid) USAians will prevail and begin to brainstorm ways to reduce the gun proliferation in the USA,

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x2. To do that there needs to be a tipping point where even the pro gun side accepts things have got totally out of hand. Sadly with the NRA saying the solution is armed guards at schools and the attitudes of the pro gun side here, the deaths of 20 children and 6 adults is not going to be that point. Instead action on swimming pools is being put forward as necessary.

In Scotland the deaths of 16 children and 1 adult was a tipping point and the number of guns in society was reduced, access to guns made harder in terms of security and the type of person allowed to have a gun.
 
In Australia similarly, Nessie as Lionking has pointed out.

There, the spree shootings had a dramatic fall. In the UK it has always been lower.
 
So leaving those aside, the USAian pro-gun folks who are genuine in their beliefs are the ones that I would like to try to understand. I would really like to be able to understand why they want to continue the proliferation of guns in their country when it seems obvious to most people looking in that it is a real and serious problem.

I am in fact opposed to "proliferation" of guns, but for why I am also opposed to gun bans, read "Weapon Shops of Isher". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weapon_Shops_of_Isher Yes, it's SF, and is a bit over the top, but we all see the results in this world of living in fear, too, very specifically including those of you in the UK with various encroachments on speech, etc. There's no magic answer that I have here, other than that all extremes eventually turn out to be extremely wrong.

But I am very strongly in favor of licensing, including requiring that people have a grasp of what weapons do, when to use them, and for what.

There is a problem over here, there are so many weapons around that there is no real total control possible. I'm not even sure that's a bad thing, given the results of government bans on alcohol, drugs, and sex, all of which have failed utterly over the years (and failed in any society I know of anywhere for any substantial extent of time).

Education has been clearly shown to work for drugs, alcohol and sex. So ...

What I do not understand about the USA is that the same people who are opposed to gun control are also those who are opposed to mental health services.

Of course, when I point this out, the demands for "proof" come forth instantly, and the straw-man arguments fly like Kansas in a tornado.
 
What I do not understand about the USA is that the same people who are opposed to gun control are also those who are opposed to mental health services.

That's a very broad brush you have there.

While it may seem like that is true, it's not. Mental health services in the US are scarce, and I for one am all for adding more. I know that many of the people I know, feel the same. Some don't.

But, to paint a huge group with an opinion is inaccurate.
 
That's a very broad brush you have there.

While it may seem like that is true, it's not. Mental health services in the US are scarce, and I for one am all for adding more. I know that many of the people I know, feel the same. Some don't.

But, to paint a huge group with an opinion is inaccurate.

Perhaps you could provide a link to the NRA's mental health services page.
 
The difference between a drowning death and a gun-related death is that in the drowning example, there are things you personally can do to prevent it. No one is chasing down children with a swimming pool.

With guns, there is nothing you personally can do if someone goes all whacky and decides to take a bunch of people out other than support laws that have the potential to remove that threat.
In that case, I assume you would never let your child ride the bus to school, or go on a field trip, because someone may go all whacky and take out a bunch of people with his car.

And in addition to teaching your child how to swim, you must accompany them to every party at which swimming may be possible, just to be on the safe side.

In reality, you probably take neither of these precautions, because you are rational enough to realize that the chance someone will go all whacky and target your child is about the same as the chance you will win the lottery. For some reason, though, such reason goes out the window with many people when guns are involved.

You might argue that you are taking your "ban guns" stance to protect OTHER people's children, because it doesn't matter who loses that tragic lottery, it could have been prevented if only there were no guns in the world.

But that would only bring us full circle -- there would be no swimming pool deaths if there were no swimming pools in the world, and no automobile deaths if there were no cars. Many more people lose those lotteries every year, and even your child is more likely to die that way than as the victim of gun violence, despite all your precautions.

Guns are more likely to kill children who are already involved in crime, or who live in a home which gives them access to guns. Since neither of those things is likely true for your child, the chance that they will die from gun violence is vanishingly low. Yet many people's reaction is to call for a ban, more for the sake of "doing something" than because it is rational to assume such a ban will protect children.
 
Guns are more likely to kill children who are already involved in crime, or who live in a home which gives them access to guns. Since neither of those things is likely true for your child, the chance that they will die from gun violence is vanishingly low. Yet many people's reaction is to call for a ban, more for the sake of "doing something" than because it is rational to assume such a ban will protect children.

It is reasonable to say that children are far less at risk from random school shootings, statistically, than they are from living with a gun in the house.

As you say, there is a greater risk of a child being hurt when there is a gun in the home.
 
Education has been clearly shown to work for drugs, alcohol and sex. So ...
I really think this will be the solution in the long run. Drunk driving and smoking are way down because of education and societal attitudes, not because we decided to ban alcohol or cigarettes.

What I do not understand about the USA is that the same people who are opposed to gun control are also those who are opposed to mental health services.

Of course, when I point this out, the demands for "proof" come forth instantly, and the straw-man arguments fly like Kansas in a tornado.
That may be true for most opponents; it's not true for me. I doubt that polls have been taken which correlate these two attitudes by individual, so I suppose if you want to understand the attitude you'll need to find an individual who espouses it and have a conversation.
 
x2. To do that there needs to be a tipping point where even the pro gun side accepts things have got totally out of hand. Sadly with the NRA saying the solution is armed guards at schools and the attitudes of the pro gun side here, the deaths of 20 children and 6 adults is not going to be that point. Instead action on swimming pools is being put forward as necessary.
You're right, for me this incident is not a tipping point.

Just so there's no confusion, however, I'm not arguing that "action on swimming pools is necessary". I'm using swimming pools (and cars) to point out that we, as a society, accept a certain number of avoidable deaths every year as the price of freedom. We could ban swimming pools and automobiles to make ourselves safer, but we choose to allow our citizens the freedom to have them, and trust that the vast majority will exercise this freedom responsibly.

In my opinion, we should continue to do the same with guns.
 
So leaving those aside, the USAian pro-gun folks who are genuine in their beliefs are the ones that I would like to try to understand. I would really like to be able to understand why they want to continue the proliferation of guns in their country when it seems obvious to most people looking in that it is a real and serious problem.
I don't want to continue proliferation, I just don't want to see access restricted.

To me, this is not a "real and serious problem". I understand that our rate of gun violence is higher than it is in UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. It still affects mostly gang bangers and other criminals. Despite the sensational headlines, ordinary citizens are unlikely to be touched by it.

It seems that many USAians are so terrified of their fellow USAians with guns that they've talked themselves into arming themselves to address their fear of their fellow countrymen and women, and that they have lost the ability or the will to try to actually deal with the gun proliferation problem that they have created and compounded over the years. Thus creating a self-fulfilling death spiral, so to speak.
Not me. I don't own a gun, and don't want one. I'm more afraid of my fellow citizens' handling of their cars than their handling of their firearms.
 
In that case, I assume you would never let your child ride the bus to school, or go on a field trip, because someone may go all whacky and take out a bunch of people with his car.

And in addition to teaching your child how to swim, you must accompany them to every party at which swimming may be possible, just to be on the safe side.

In reality, you probably take neither of these precautions, because you are rational enough to realize that the chance someone will go all whacky and target your child is about the same as the chance you will win the lottery. For some reason, though, such reason goes out the window with many people when guns are involved.

You might argue that you are taking your "ban guns" stance to protect OTHER people's children, because it doesn't matter who loses that tragic lottery, it could have been prevented if only there were no guns in the world.

But that would only bring us full circle -- there would be no swimming pool deaths if there were no swimming pools in the world, and no automobile deaths if there were no cars. Many more people lose those lotteries every year, and even your child is more likely to die that way than as the victim of gun violence, despite all your precautions.

Guns are more likely to kill children who are already involved in crime, or who live in a home which gives them access to guns. Since neither of those things is likely true for your child, the chance that they will die from gun violence is vanishingly low. Yet many people's reaction is to call for a ban, more for the sake of "doing something" than because it is rational to assume such a ban will protect children.

I don't believe I ever actually said what my stance was.

Having been a licensed armed security guard and shooting enthusiast, I would ask that you look at what my post actually was - which was an answer to your question and nothing more.

Now, if you sincerely think my post didn't answer your question in a dispassionate, logical way, I must ask if you're being intentionally obtuse.

The question was how a drowning death is different from homicide by gun. It was not whether additional laws would be effective. It was not about swimming parties. It was not about probabilities.
 
You're right, for me this incident is not a tipping point.

Just so there's no confusion, however, I'm not arguing that "action on swimming pools is necessary". I'm using swimming pools (and cars) to point out that we, as a society, accept a certain number of avoidable deaths every year as the price of freedom. We could ban swimming pools and automobiles to make ourselves safer, but we choose to allow our citizens the freedom to have them, and trust that the vast majority will exercise this freedom responsibly.

In my opinion, we should continue to do the same with guns.

This vague appeal to freedom needs further defining. The citizens of the UK are free to use guns, swimming pools and cars. We manage that with far fewer shootings as we already know and road deaths

UK 4.8 per 100,000 to the USA's 13.9 per 100,000

and drownings,

UK 0.4 per 100,000 to the USA's 1.2 per 100,000

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/world-health-rankings

I am quite sure that is because we accept more responsibility for the negative consequences of freedom which are high death rates from shooting, drowning and cars crashing. But in no way does that diminish our actual freedom to shoot, swim or drive and it improves our freedom to live safely compared to the USA.
 
That may be true for most opponents; it's not true for me. I doubt that polls have been taken which correlate these two attitudes by individual, so I suppose if you want to understand the attitude you'll need to find an individual who espouses it and have a conversation.

The Tea Party
 
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Perhaps you'll like to where I claimed the NRA supported that? Or that even the vast majority did.....

I am sure it is in reference to this

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...s-database-thirty-eight-states-have-that-now/

"In his Friday morning news conference, National Rifle Association chief executive Wayne LaPierre floated the idea of a national registry of the mentally ill as one way to stem gun violence.

“How can we possibly even guess how many, given our nation’s refusal to create an active national database of the mentally ill?” he asked."
 
In that case, I assume you would never let your child ride the bus to school, or go on a field trip, because someone may go all whacky and take out a bunch of people with his car.
I think there's a difference here between use and utility. A gun is a weapon; a car is not. That a car may be utilized as a weapon is hardly relevant.
 
I am sure it is in reference to this

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...s-database-thirty-eight-states-have-that-now/

"In his Friday morning news conference, National Rifle Association chief executive Wayne LaPierre floated the idea of a national registry of the mentally ill as one way to stem gun violence.

“How can we possibly even guess how many, given our nation’s refusal to create an active national database of the mentally ill?” he asked."

An interesting stand considering that the NRA fights government use of databases to track firearms, firearms owners or even concealed carry permit holders.
 
and drownings,

UK 0.4 per 100,000 to the USA's 1.2 per 100,000

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/world-health-rankings

I am quite sure that is because we accept more responsibility for the negative consequences of freedom which are high death rates from shooting, drowning and cars crashing. But in no way does that diminish our actual freedom to shoot, swim or drive and it improves our freedom to live safely compared to the USA.

Well, on that one, it could simply be due to a discrepancy in the number of private pools. They're not at all common in the UK, but I think more homes have them in the USA.
 
Well, on that one, it could simply be due to a discrepancy in the number of private pools. They're not at all common in the UK, but I think more homes have them in the USA.

Or it could be down to many people getting rid of garden ponds, which were a popular feature in many gardens back in the 1970s/80s. Their popularity fell out of favour after a number of incidents with young children drowning. A well known in Scotland TV presenter Muriel Gray's child ended up with brain damage after falling into a garden pond.
 
I don't believe I ever actually said what my stance was.

Having been a licensed armed security guard and shooting enthusiast, I would ask that you look at what my post actually was - which was an answer to your question and nothing more.

Now, if you sincerely think my post didn't answer your question in a dispassionate, logical way, I must ask if you're being intentionally obtuse.

The question was how a drowning death is different from homicide by gun. It was not whether additional laws would be effective. It was not about swimming parties. It was not about probabilities.

You said, and I quote, "With guns, there is nothing you personally can do if someone goes all whacky and decides to take a bunch of people out other than support laws that have the potential to remove that threat."

If that is not a statement of a stance that considers, indeed, even emphasizes the idea of (and again I quote) "whether additional laws would be effective" then I must answer your question in the negative: I'm not being deliberately obtuse.

We can cite numerous differences between a drowning death and homicide by gun. One thing they have in common is that they're often avoidable. People are calling for additional restrictions on gun ownership as a way of avoiding gun homicide, but are not calling for additional restrictions on pool ownership (or car ownership) as a way of avoiding accidental (or intentional) deaths caused by those things.

My question, which may not have been clear, is what difference justifies such advocacy in the case of guns, but not in the cases of pools and cars. Your answer offered one possible difference, my response explored whether that difference really justified additional restrictions on guns. I am inclined to think it did not.
 

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