School shooting: but don't mention guns!

[gumboot]

This is what I've been saying. America is a considerably more violent place overall, compared to UK/EU. It is not BECAUSE of guns, though (or at least, not demonstrably so).

Actually the UK has about five times as much violent crime as the US. The difference is that guns are involved in far less incidents, so "assault" or "armed robbery" doesn't get upgraded to "homicide" as often.

 

[Dcdrac]

talking last night with family in the US and freinds there seems a 50/50 split

what interests me is the fear of what might be rather than what is, some of th epoints raised what if you come a cross a mugger you have a gun etc, and if you say they have a gun too?


but the main pnt being fear of something seems to loom large in imagainations, when pressed my relatives could not actually state anytime they felt really threatend enough to shoot.

It jsut strikes me a big fear of the Other and paranoia about possbilities an almost bunker like attituude,

And I live i nthe US for a while in the 90s and when a child often ws there seeing family and the difference between now and then when I visit was back then it was rare to see a gun in a house and now its rare not to.

final note my cousin is handing over his Bushmaster and glock to the Boston Poilcie department voluntarily, he is a NRA member too

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Actually the UK has about five times as much violent crime as the US. The difference is that guns are involved in far less incidents, so "assault" or "armed robbery" doesn't get upgraded to "homicide" as often.

source please.

 

[lionking]

source please.

Just let me say that while its quite valid to compare homicide rates between countries, comparing "violence" is another thing altogether as the way assaults and crimes against the person are measured varies wildly from country to country.

 

[Dcdrac]

The overview from this FBI dataset is worthy of note:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime

 

[StankApe]

Just let me say that while its quite valid to compare homicide rates between countries, comparing "violence" is another thing altogether as the way assaults and crimes against the person are measured varies wildly from country to country.

It's NOT valid to compare homicide rates between countries, because country A may have 50,000 homicides but 32,000 of them are inter gang murders, yet country B may also have 50,000 homicides but he only 2,000 of them are gang related.

I would submit, country B has more of a murder problem than country A

 

[NWO Sentryman]

The overview from this FBI dataset is worthy of note:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime

I think this issue needs to be moved to a separate thread.

 

[gumboot]

As I always say, Horrible crimes are generally the foundation for horrible laws. Did you know more kids have died as a result of organized sports than have been killed in school mass shootings? 36 kids died as a result of playing high school football (in practice or in games) from 2001- 2011.

While I agree with the general thrust of what I think your argument is (that laws should not irrationally be implemented in response to isolated and exceptionally rare events) I can't really say I see the validity of your comparison above.

Firstly, what perentage of these 36 children were deliberately murdered while playing high school football?

Secondly, what percentage of total children involved in high school football between 2001 and 2011 do those 36 children represent, versus the percentage of children involved in school shootings that died?

Thirdly, what measures are taken in High School football to prevent deaths, and are there calls to take further measures to reduce deaths, and how seriously are those calls taken?

Simply comparing death figures between various activities is totally meaningless.

In the ~60+ years of the manned US Space programe, the total number of deaths has been exceptionally small, with hundreds of times more deaths every year in the US from motor accidents. But only a fool would suggest driving a car was more dangerous that being an astronaut.

 

[lionking]

It's NOT valid to compare homicide rates between countries, because country A may have 50,000 homicides but 32,000 of them are inter gang murders, yet country B may also have 50,000 homicides but he only 2,000 of them are gang related.

I would submit, country B has more of a murder problem than country A

Rubbish. As much as you would like to discount "gang murders" (impossible to define, by the way) they still count against the country in question. Another fail.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Just let me say that while its quite valid to compare homicide rates between countries, comparing "violence" is another thing altogether as the way assaults and crimes against the person are measured varies wildly from country to country.

This is a good point that deserves to be highlighted, pretty much any physical contact (and even verbal confrontation) may be recorded as a 'violent' crime if reported to the police in the UK, for example harrasment, threatening behaviour (particually threatening with any kind of real or fake weapon) and bag snatching for example are recorded as violent.

This is a bit out of date but-:

Seriousness and injury
• The majority of incidents categorised as violent crime involve no significant physical injury to
the victim, although they can still be extremely traumatic experiences.
• In 48 per cent of all BCS violent incidents there was no injury, rising to 62 per cent and 63 per
cent for common assault and robbery respectively (year ending December 2003 interviews).
• There was no injury in at least 51 per cent
1
of all recorded violence against the person
offences in 2003 (Table 1a).
• At the other end of the spectrum, the more serious offences within violence against the person
accounted for five per cent of recorded violence in the year to December 2003 (Table 1a).
• Eleven per cent of BCS violent incidents, from 2002/03 BCS interviews, resulted in medical
attention from a doctor. Two per cent of all BCS violent incidents resulted in a hospital stay,
ranging from six per cent of wounding victims to one per cent of robbery victims (Simmons
and Dodd, 2003).

http://collection.europarchive.org/tna/20090120202659/homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/rdsolr1804.pdf

 

[Multivac]

two words: FOX NEWS

I've seen a few minutes* of FOX NEWS, so understand what you're saying, but surely there must be more to it.

* only watched a few minutes of it, as it didn't seem to relate to the planet i inhabit.

 

[Multivac]

It strikes me as odd that someone can only feel secure if they have access to a minature arsenel, the fears that drive that desire msut be incredibly intense.

It makes no sense to me.

 

[The Don]

source please.

Here's a source, but it is the Daily Fail from back in 2009:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ry-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

The UK has 20 times the level of violent crime than Australia, 5 times that of the U.S.

Then again even this (Labour government of the time-bashing) article points out that there are significant differences between countries in the way that the figures are compiled.

In Britain, an affray is considered a violent crime, while in other countries it will only be logged if a person is physically injured.

 

[Multivac]

Well said. As a Brit I simply cannot understand the attitude towards guns that is held by many Americans.

The objective measure of an attitude's merit is whether it can be understood by a brit. Glad we cleared that up.

Thankyou for your condescension. I was simply pointing out that, as someone who lives in country where people do not generally own guns, I do not understand the emotional attachment that many Americans have for their guns.

 

[gumboot]

(bolding mine)

There is no way to enforce this as a law.

Plenty of other countries seem to manage it.

 

[lionking]

Here's a source, but it is the Daily Fail from back in 2009:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ry-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

The UK has 20 times the level of violent crime than Australia, 5 times that of the U.S.

Then again even this (Labour government of the time-bashing) article points out that there are significant differences between countries in the way that the figures are compiled.

Good points. I know that if there's a dust-up at, say, the football, and (mainly ineffective) blows are exchanged, police in Australia will often give those involved a warning, may evict people, and may not even take names. These events do not usually get before the courts.

 

[Multivac]

I have been listening to nothing but anti-american insults in most of these threads. irrational arguments, appeals to emotion. so I'm not supposed to mention them?

would you allow this method of argument to fly in any other thread?

I wouldn't.

Perhaps you could point out some of these anti-American posts? There are many posts from non-Americans saying that they don't understand American attitudes, but since when is not understanding something an insult?

 

[Multivac]

I read rikzilla's post again and didn't see any mention at all of the "good ole days". Yet more straw.

Same here. I read it as a reasoned post from an American that is worried about how his society is developing. The "good old days" were not mentioned.

 

[gumboot]

You forgot to mention South Africa, Pakistan, and Ceylon. Are they enjoying the "British Way of Life^TM"? I notice the English here have a pretty wide streak of ethnocentricism. It's a very selective list of former dominions that you like to point to as successes. You all seem just far enough removed from your absolutely brutal colonial past to look at it through rose colo(u)red glasses. That lovely "British Way of Life^TM" came at great expense to those on who's backs it was built upon.

Most of South Africa's problems can be attributed to the Dutch, Pakistan tried to go it alone like the USA and was an even bigger failure, and Sri Lanka was doing pretty well too until it decided to try do it on its own and was plunged into Civil War.

These examples really serve to further illustrate the point. You'd be better highlighting an example like India.

 

[!Kaggen]

Most of South Africa's problems can be attributed to the Dutch, Pakistan tried to go it alone like the USA and was an even bigger failure, and Sri Lanka was doing pretty well too until it decided to try do it on its own and was plunged into Civil War.

These examples really serve to further illustrate the point. You'd be better highlighting an example like India.

Really, the Dutch?
As a South African this is news to me.
I would have attributed our problems to
South Africans.