School shooting: but don't mention guns!

[Nessie]

FWIW, we would have been committing a felony had we been in the school with our weapon.

So a parent with a carry permit aware their child is in a school with a gun madman would think, better not go in

What use are all these armed Americans? I hear that a lot about the police, the argument I have to defend myself as they can take time to get to me. That appears to apply to all you as well.

 

[Quad4_72]

So a parent with a carry permit aware their child is in a school with a gun madman would think, better not go in

What use are all these armed Americans? I hear that a lot about the police, the argument I have to defend myself as they can take time to get to me. That appears to apply to all you as well.

I was thinking more along the lines of a teacher or faculty member being armed. But yes I think the law is silly, because it only benefits the criminals. If they want to go on a shooting rampage, rest assured no one inside of a school will be able to defend themselves.

 

[joesixpack]

In the UK anyone can apply and it is up to the police to argue the case if they think that person is not suitable. The police have to give reasons for a lack of suitability and there is an appeal system to the courts if an applicant feels the police were wrong to refuse. The UK police cannot say no unless the applicant is a danger either.

We have the right to a gun as much as you do, the conditions are different, just as different US states have different conditions, thats all.

Sorry, you are the confused one.

I'm sorry, I don't actually know what the law is in the UK outside of what's been stated on these forums (forae?). It has been stated and restated that one must provide a "legitimate reason" for wanting to own a gun, "legitimate" being hunting, or sport, but not ever ever self defense. Is this not true? I was under the impression that there is a spot on the application where one must justify his desire for a license? Is that not the case?

 

[Ziggurat]

Personally, I don't see the big deal about a concealed carry permit holder carrying into a school with a holstered weapon. I know that sounds outrageous, but what harm does it cause?

You don't understand what harm it does? But it's obvious! It gets certain people's panties in a bunch. Don't you realize how traumatizing it is to have bunched-up panties? Heartless bastard.

 

[Belz...]

Again comes the implication of some deranged paranoia that myself and other prepared gun owners have. We don't live in fear whatsoever. We don't stay up at night listening for strange sounds, and we aren't fearful of home invasions. We are well aware of the rarity of such an occasion, as we are also aware of the consequences that could possibly come from not being prepared for such a rare occurrence. We have taken what we believe are necessary precautions, and that's it. Other then that, we live as normally as any other individual.

Fair enough.

 

[Nessie]

Indeed, Mexico has much tighter gun control restrictions than Canada and a murder per capita rate of five times that of the United States.

Perhaps there are factors other than gun control that might account for these discrepancies...

The peacefulness of a country is the main factor.

Canada (30.8 guns per 100 people) is a more peaceful country than the USA (88.8 per 100 peopel) not so, Mexico (15.4 per 100 peopel) has a war ongoing. In the same way Switzerland with tons of guns per head (47.5 per 100 people) is a peaceful country compared to South Africa with fewer guns per head (17.03 per 100). Japan (0.6 per 100 people) has way less crime than England & Wales (6.2 per 100 people) and is generally regarded as a safer, more peaceful place.

Sorry Americans, you are not very peaceful and you have tons of guns.

 

[Belz...]

I am not familiar with firearms.

Lets suggest that this shooter was reasonably proficient with this rifle and could reload in 3 seconds.

How much time does it take for a person to say leap out from behind a desk and tackle a reloading shooter to the floor?

I'd probably stay hidden, myself, rather than tackle a person with a gun.

 

[Belz...]

That's beside the point (strawman argument).

That's not what a strawman is.

 

[Belz...]

No, you are confused here. If I must apply for a permit, then it is no longer a right. The burden of proof is on the applicant to demonstrate a need.

Not necessarily the need but the ability.

 

[joesixpack]

Sorry Americans, you are not very peaceful and you have tons of guns.

This is what I've been saying. America is a considerably more violent place overall, compared to UK/EU. It is not BECAUSE of guns, though (or at least, not demonstrably so).

 

[Quad4_72]

I'd probably stay hidden, myself, rather than tackle a person with a gun.

Him not being familiar with firearms is a contributing factor to his "Tackle" fantasy.

 

[Belz...]

Personally, I don't see the big deal about a concealed carry permit holder carrying into a school with a holstered weapon. I know that sounds outrageous, but what harm does it cause? Obviously the law of no guns in schools does not deter criminals, so what purpose does it serve?

Well, personally I have no problem with home defense, hunting or gallery shooting. But seeing how irrational people become over trivial stuff, say, the price of a towel at Wal-Mart, I'd rather them not having the option to shoot me dead over a disagreement. And these people aren't insane. Just temporarily losing their rationality. At least if they only have theirs fists and teeth I might live.

 

[Autolite]

Self defense seems a pretty plausible reason to me. Considering that police response time where I live is generally 20 minutes or more after 10:00 pm, I think having a firearm in the home is a rather prudent measure.

Self defense is not commonly considered a valid reason for firearm ownership or possession under Canadian law. Many Canadians are supportive of this viewpoint.

I am curious as to what percentage of murder victims, who had maintained this stance, would re-evaluate their thoughts on the matter if they were still alive to do so...

 

[Belz...]

A crazy person with easy access to firearms; but you only want to look at one part of situation?

Precisely. Both (and possibly more) sides should be looked at.

 

[Quad4_72]

Well, personally I have no problem with home defense, hunting or gallery shooting. But seeing how irrational people become over trivial stuff, say, the price of a towel at Wal-Mart, I'd rather them not having the option to shoot me dead over a disagreement. And these people aren't insane. Just temporarily losing their rationality. At least if they only have theirs fists and teeth I might live.

Well guns have been readily available to citizens in the United States for many many years now. How often do you encounter individuals pulling guns on you or others at the Walmart over minor disputes?

 

[Nessie]

I'm sorry, I don't actually know what the law is in the UK outside of what's been stated on these forums (forae?). It has been stated and restated that one must provide a "legitimate reason" for wanting to own a gun, "legitimate" being hunting, or sport, but not ever ever self defense. Is this not true? I was under the impression that there is a spot on the application where one must justify his desire for a license? Is that not the case?

It is half true, on an application form you need to list a reason for a rifle, but not a shotgun. The list of reasons for a rifle are the same in the USA as the UK with the exception of self defence. The main legislation is the Firearms Act 1968

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27

Our Unwritten Constitution, nicely summarised by Wikipedia

"Unlike many other nations, the UK has no single constitutional document. This is sometimes expressed by stating that it has an uncodified or "unwritten" constitution.[2] Much of the British constitution is embodied in written documents, within statutes, court judgments and treaties. The constitution has other unwritten sources, including parliamentary constitutional conventions (as laid out in Erskine May) and royal prerogatives."

It is pretty much a case of pass a law in the UK and it becomes part of our constitution.

"Acts of Parliament are among the most important sources of the constitution. According to the traditional view, Parliament has the ability to legislate however it wishes on any subject it wishes."

We have the right to guns as much as you do in the USA. Its is in our Unwritten constitution as per the Firearms Act 1968. The Founding Fathers did not like the idea of an Unwritten Constitution, so they wrote one.

 

[joesixpack]

It is half true, on an application form you need to list a reason for a rifle, but not a shotgun. The list of reasons for a rifle are the same in the USA as the UK with the exception of self defence. The main legislation is the Firearms Act 1968

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27

Our Unwritten Constitution, nicely summarised by Wikipedia

"Unlike many other nations, the UK has no single constitutional document. This is sometimes expressed by stating that it has an uncodified or "unwritten" constitution.[2] Much of the British constitution is embodied in written documents, within statutes, court judgments and treaties. The constitution has other unwritten sources, including parliamentary constitutional conventions (as laid out in Erskine May) and royal prerogatives."

It is pretty much a case of pass a law in the UK and it becomes part of our constitution.

"Acts of Parliament are among the most important sources of the constitution. According to the traditional view, Parliament has the ability to legislate however it wishes on any subject it wishes."

We have the right to guns as much as you do in the USA. Its is in our Unwritten constitution as per the Firearms Act 1968. The Founding Fathers did not like the idea of an Unwritten Constitution, so they wrote one.

I stand corrected. Well, actually I'm sitting at the moment.

As far as a "list of reasons" though, there is no such thing in the US. In other words, there is no requirement for me to provide a "reason" for buying a weapon other than the tautological reason of "I want one because I want one". This seems a pretty significant difference.


As a totally unrelated side note, I see the word "Audiophile" on all your posts along with your profile pic and name and I keep hearing this imaginary conversation in my head;
"Loch Ness Monster Cables!"
"How do they sound?"
"Unreal!"

 

[Nessie]

This is what I've been saying. America is a considerably more violent place overall, compared to UK/EU. It is not BECAUSE of guns, though (or at least, not demonstrably so).

Though give guns to people who are more inclined to be violent and the guns will become inextricably linked to the levels of death. The Scots are pretty violent to, thank God we do not do guns like you do. People are less likely to die when given a Glasgow Kiss, a slap or even a stab with a knife than when shot.

This is a huge meta study of gunshot vs stab wounds from all around the world

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/1997/02/24/knives-00006/

Seattle - "The mortality rate for gunshot wounds was 22% while that for stab wounds was 4%"

South Africa - "The hospital mortality rate for gunshot wounds was 8 times that for stab wounds"

Germany - "Patients with gunshot wounds had a significantly higher mortality
rate..."

Brazil - "Stab wounds determined the best survival rate: 94%, whereas for gunshot wounds it was only 50%"

Unclear where - "The mortality rates for the stab and the gunshot groups were 13% and 50.7%...."

USA - "Full paper reveals survival rates of 46% for gunshot wounds, 78% for
stab wounds, and 36% for shotgun wounds."

So because of guns more people die in the USA when attacked with a weapon, as the weapon of choice for many is the gun.

 

[Nessie]

I stand corrected. Well, actually I'm sitting at the moment.

As far as a "list of reasons" though, there is no such thing in the US. In other words, there is no requirement for me to provide a "reason" for buying a weapon other than the tautological reason of "I want one because I want one". This seems a pretty significant difference.

I say no as you do not need to give a reason to get a shotgun and the lsit for a firearm is pretty extensive.

As a totally unrelated side note, I see the word "Audiophile" on all your posts along with your profile pic and name and I keep hearing this imaginary conversation in my head;
"Loch Ness Monster Cables!"
"How do they sound?"

Cable debates, arrgh! They are way worse than any other debate I get into!!!!
"Unreal!"[/QUOTE]

 

[Explorer]

The price of twenty six and seven year olds:

Guns and ammunition manufacturing annual revenue $11,000,000,000
Number of people employed by the firearm manufacturing industry 35,165
Number of weapons and ammunition manufacturers in the U.S. 465
Number of retail gun dealers 50,812
Annual Federal tax dollars collected on firearm sales $123,000,000

Good value folks?