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School shooting: but don't mention guns!

thaiboxerken said:
Mental health care should be added to Obamacare, I agree.
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Right after they add "health care" to it. There is still no universal access to even the most basic health care, and thee won't be in the foreseeable future, even under "obamacare"

People living in the industrialized world outside of the US seem to forget the dearth of social safety nets American's have.
 
tyr_13 said:
I think I'm pretty much with Myriad on this. (To answer you question, it's because trains are for commie Europeans.) Not only are mental health options very limited in the US, they are stigmatized to a great degree. Both of these are even more true for males. Even talking about getting help means serious social repercussions. Hell, getting treated for depression when I was sixteen is one of the reasons I was rejected from military service.

But it's much easier to try to point blame on something solid, and something you can demonize because you don't need or want it. Sure, there are valid points to that too and worth discussion, but the other parts get so ignored simply because they're more difficult to point fingers at.
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Hopefully that stigma is improving. Per this report, use of antidepressant medication in the USA is up 400% since 1988 and about 1 in 10 Americans over the age of 12 take antidepressants. The cynical view would be that it's a result of promotion of these medications by big pharma. But even if profit is the motive, it puts the issue in the public eye and promotes more open discussion of it.

From the op-ed pieces I've read since the shootings, mental health seems to be coming up in a lot of them. It'll be interesting to see how two very contentious issues in America - healthcare reform and gun control - enter the dialogue here. Would this have happened if the shooter had better access to mental health services?
 
StankApe said:
anyone who thinks outlawing guns would stop stuff like this is delusional and not very bright.

I want to kill people at school, I goto local "guy" and buy illegal gun and ammo. Problem solved....

why is it people don't get this?

Not to mention that the Mexican Cartels would be very happy to get rich shipping illegal guns into the country.


waits for the overly emotional whining by the turtle neck clad weenies
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Outlaw, no. Make it damn hard, yes. Put in place more checks and balances (which is to say, at least some checks and balances).

Felons = NO GUNS
Crazy people = NO GUNS

No, it's not a cure-all. But it's something.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Be a home invader in my home and see how long you last. I have no firearms, btw.
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I'm sure we're all supposed to be impressed by your bravado. Hell, I'll even assume it's true: you're a badass mother who could kick the living **** out of any burglar.

But what about people who aren't physically strong?
 
Redtail said:
Feel free to point out where I said that it was.
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Sorry, it wasn't you that implied it. It was Ziggy:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8845520#post8845520



Ziggurat said:
I'm sure we're all supposed to be impressed by your bravado. Hell, I'll even assume it's true: you're a badass mother who could kick the living **** out of any burglar.

But what about people who aren't physically strong?
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Physical strength has little to do with neutralizing someone using any number of non-lethal weapons.
 
NoahFence said:
Outlaw, no. Make it damn hard, yes. Put in place more checks and balances (which is to say, at least some checks and balances).

Felons = NO GUNS
Crazy people = NO GUNS

No, it's not a cure-all. But it's something.
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I agree with both of those. There is a problem with enforcing the 2nd one though. as pointed out by others, very few people with mental problems actually seek treatment, or have ever been treated.

anybody know how many of the school and mass killers had a record of mental treatment?
 
thaiboxerken said:
Be a home invader in my home and see how long you last. I have no firearms, btw.
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until you come across a burglar who is better than you are, maybe ex-military, trained to kill with his hands. Or is simply bigger and badder than you are.
 
I honestly don't know where I stand on the gun issue, anymore. I don't have anything in that fight as I never have or probably never will, own a gun. It surprises me, though, how quickly correlation becomes causation in this argument, far more than in any other argument, on this board. There are quite a few differences between first world countries with strict gun control and the US, one that gets mentioned over and over is our mental health system. Even if you have insurance, your options and coverage are very limited, not to mention the cost of medication is outrageous.

The other difference that is rarely mentioned is how violence is perceived; violence/gore is not shocking, in our culture, boobs are. I always found it weird, back in the earlier years of NCIS that they could have a corpse laying on the table with it's chest open, showing an autopsy, in graphic detail, but they would blur out the flacid, unsexualized penis. I have never been outside the country but through conversations with people from across the pond, I get the impression that it is the other way around; violence is shocking but sex isn't.

I am all for discussion. Whether you are from this country or not, you are going to hear our news and have opinions about it. I don't believe in never rethinking the constitution simply because of some loyalty to history; it's an open document, designed to change to meet the needs of the people. I just have the feeling that if this correlation was used to prove a point you didn't agree with, you would want to explore all angles before concluding that something must be done.
 
StankApe said:
until you come across a burglar who is better than you are, maybe ex-military, trained to kill with his hands. Or is simply bigger and badder than you are.
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The same situation can happen if you own a gun as well. The burglar who is better armed and armored and has superior gun skills could come to your home.
 
Ziggurat said:
None of which are nearly as effective as a gun.
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So you believe. I don't equate the ability to kill as the most important measure of effectiveness.

A steel door, steel framed door with dead bolt lock is probably quite a bit more effective at stopping a home invader than a gun.
 
StankApe said:
until you come across a burglar who is better than you are, maybe ex-military, trained to kill with his hands. Or is simply bigger and badder than you are.
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Or a burgler who is armed and who had no intention of using said firearm unless faced with armed opposition. Or a burgler who arms themselves with your firearm.

Any burgler worth their salt will wait until the home is unoccupied anyway. I'm reminded of a friend who keeps all of his guns in a safe aside from one handgun he kept hidden for home defense. His house was robbed while the family was away. The only gun stolen was the home defense gun.
 
thaiboxerken said:
The same situation can happen if you own a gun as well. The burglar who is better armed and armored and has superior gun skills could come to your home.
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I would say that the odds of a well armed,body armored person becoming a home burglar is less than ANY burglar being sufficiently able bodied in the butt kicking department. Body armor costs money, lots of money. Those kinds of people rob banks. street criminals rob houses
 
Kilaak Kommander said:
Or a burgler who is armed and who had no intention of using said firearm unless faced with armed opposition. Or a burgler who arms themselves with your firearm.

Any burgler worth their salt will wait until the home is unoccupied anyway. I'm reminded of a friend who keeps all of his guns in a safe aside from one handgun he kept hidden for home defense. His house was robbed while the family was away. The only gun stolen was the home defense gun.
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I'd venture to say that it wouldn't have been stolen if the business end of it was pointed at the burglar by your friend.
 
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