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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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Mostly, but there are both Israeli citizens and sympathetic international media moaning about a Hamas "victory"... due to their unrealistic expectations. (Although this is starting to turn around as cooler heads gain reasonable perspective.)

Personally, I can't stand Likud, Lieberman or the Netanyahu administration. But in this case, I think they handled the crisis fairly well.
The IDF was able to eliminate a healthy portion of the Hamas command structure, weapons storage facilities and transport tunnels. The lion's share of their missile arsenal was bled out with very little actual results, due to the stunning effectiveness of Iron Dome- a system that just a few years ago was considered by some analysts to be a colossal waste of resources which would never have a significant role on the battlefield. And this was accomplished without having to resort to a ground assault.

From what I've read so far, the cease fire extracted no serious concessions from Israel. Halting targeted assassinations would naturally be included, and loosening restrictions on Palestinian movement was being planned before the crisis began. Meanwhile, shortly after the cease fire took effect, Mashaal stated that Hamas accepts 2 states based on the '67 borders and was willing to proceed without resorting to violence in any form. IIRC, this is the first time this stance has been put on record; it might have been a negotiated condition for the agreement.

Who knows... a few more of these spectacular Hamas "victories" and we may even live to see Israel recognized as a legitimate Jewish state.

Good post, and you were absolutely right in this.

Israel has made some minor concessions through easing some fishing limitations and farmer field access near borders. And they will likely be spared from having to ease aspects of the blockade that would prevent Hamas from more easily rearming for the next conflict as Hamas has predictably stated that they will not stop obtaining new arms to fire at Israeli citizens.

All of which points to a lull in the violence until the next escalation. As Jeffrey Goldberg in his article noted:

Seven Truths About Israel, Hamas and Violence

Hamas’s strategy in this latest conflict makes perfect sense. Hamas, which is the Palestine branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, is theologically committed to the obliteration of Israel and believes, as a matter of faith, that Jews are Allah’s enemies. Its leaders have believed, since the group’s inception, that Jews are soft (“We love death and they love life,” a Hamas leader once told me, and it is a commonly expressed thought). Hamas also believes that eventually misery and fear will drive most Jews to leave Israel, which it views as a Muslim waqf, or endowment, not merely the rightful home of the Palestinian people.

This strategy only works because Hamas leaders believe that the deaths of Palestinians aid their cause. As we have seen in this latest iteration of the Arab-Israeli war, every death of a Palestinian civilian is a victory for Hamas and a defeat for Israel. Palestinians in Gaza who dissent from this approach are often punished by Hamas.

A tactic that may help Hamas (and definitely helps Iran), but does not help the Gazan people. Until they can break that cycle, the result will likely be as Jeffery notes that:

The trends on both sides are almost entirely negative. The most likely outcome of this round: A cease-fire, a period of quiet and then a gradual return to shooting.

There are ways to solve this crisis beyond just a continual reoccurrence of violence and cease fires. All it would take is for someone with the credibility, support, and protection from the Gazan people to suggest a way of working with the Israelis, instead of just trying to kill them all.
 
Do you have any evidence that the "billions of dollars in developing, manufacturing, and continously improving precision guided munitions, training the military in their use" are spent in order to avoid unneccessary casualties from the other side?

John, I agree with the other posters that this is not a serious question.

This comment from you was better:

The Israel/Palestinian issue in summary:
1) pro-Israeli groups blame Hamas for launching rockets and for not recognizing the State of Israel but say nothing about the fact that Israel occupies Palestinian land and does not want a Palestinian State
2) pro-Palestinian groups blame Israel about the fact that Israel occupies Palestinian land and does not want a Palestinian State but say nothing about the fact that Hamas is launching rockets and not recognizing the State of Israel
In conclusion, every of the two groups points fingers at what the other is doing wrong and does not look at what they are doing wrong themselves.
A typical case of “us vs them” mentality
And round and round we go..

Although the criticism from PhantomWolf was correct on it, your comment was on topic and worth more discussion.

Except this part is demonstratably untrue. Israel has been for a 2-State solution for, well since 1948. Their main conditions have been that they are a) recognised as a State by the Arab world, and b) left along in peace.

Having said that, there certain are reasons for criticing Irael's action, including the continuation of building on the West Bank and the treatment of Israeli Arabs, but the 2-State solution is not one of them.

What you also have to understand is that Israel occupying Palestinian land means "Israel existing," as Palestinians see all of Palestine as Palestinian land. As long as Israel exists, there are those that will claim they are occupiers, even if they pulled back to the 1948 UN borders it wouldn't be good enough for many on the Pro-Palestinian side. You can also see how this falls into the whole "recognise Israel as a State" side of things.

I am including one of the better posts on this topic from another thread on Israel which discusses the dual underlying conflict quite well.

I rather think its more likely that the people in this thread are operating with very different perceptions of the conflict, rather than there being some kind of deep seated moral flaw or "disgusting" view held. And I know to the zealot such a statement will appear to them as if I too share a horrific moral abscess - but hey, I'm putting it out there!

Everyone here thinks their opinions are reasonable, and if we met face to face over a beer we might have more empathy for each other.

In any event, the outrage competition over what the other person is posting is boring, and doesn't get us anywhere.

To get to what else this latest back and forth triggered in my mind: I think its clear both sides have been locked into a repetition of the same strategy. The Palestinians with their various asymmetric methods and the Israelis with their periodic "crushing" of resistance against a backdrop of grinding, decades long attrition.

Neither side is "forced" to choose to repeat the same failed strategy, but - as mentioned in the post I wrote on page 2 - both sides are incentivized to act the way they do. Israeli hawks think that with the material, military and political advantages they enjoy that they can outlast the Palestinians and win a war of attrition. Maybe attrition is also the safest political option, with little risk of upsetting the political cart at home. The demographic threat looms however, and given the modicum of restraint exercised upon them by the highly-visible and propagandistic nature of this conflict they can't really pull a Putin and go the "medieval" styles necessary to truly crush the Palestinians and bend them finally to their will. So the question is how long Israel can keep it up before other pressures come to bear: I fear they can keep it up quite a bit longer...

The Palestinians don't have to choose terror tactics, like the Israelis they are not "forced" to do what they do - but the fundamental power imbalance means traditional armed conflict is doomed to failure (explained more deeply on page 2). The history of the conflict also shows that leaders in Palestine have, as their Israeli counterparts have as well, often found escalations in conflict a handy way to sideline competitors and shore up political support to retain their power. There is also a host of regional players and people across the middle east that are encouraging the Palestinians to take action that justifies the dollars and weapons and moral support given to them. This can manifest in terror attacks.

The two biggest factors fueling the Palestinians have nothing to do with some implacable evil or hatred. They are the fundamental and complete imbalance in relative power and the weapons and support flowing to the Palestinians to keep them well above the point where Israeli actions could ever break them.

History has shown that civil wars where no one cares about the outcome end quickly - the powerful side does what it needs to do to crush the resistance, and some degree of stability is won quickly. Civil wars where outside parties can fuel and sustain the opposing sides can endure for decades, with horrifying consequences and threats to stability that could very easily mushroom into regional wars. That outside support can be drawn in during a particularly crazy escalation and turn civil war into a greater war.
 
Choosing violence as a political tool means that you are 100% responsible for the consequences of that violence.
Indeed. Does that mean you agree Hamas gets what it deserves, then?

I'm sure "they" would love to use "precision guided" drones, then they wouldn't be savages anymore. They'd be morally pure like us.
No one has called anyone "morally pure", but actually, yes, it's a lot more moral to use precise weapons to eliminate military targets with minimal civilian casualties than, you know, purposefully target civilians. *facepalm*
 
No one has called anyone "morally pure", but actually, yes, it's a lot more moral to use precise weapons to eliminate military targets with minimal civilian casualties than, you know, purposefully target civilians. *facepalm*

Yeah, that deserves an epic facepalm

 
No one has called anyone "morally pure", but actually, yes, it's a lot more moral to use precise weapons to eliminate military targets with minimal civilian casualties than, you know, purposefully target civilians. *facepalm*

Any evidence for this ?
I mean, for the fact that the Israeli military is not purposefully target civilians ?
 
Any evidence for this ?
I mean, for the fact that the Israeli military is not purposefully target civilians ?

What evidence do we have you're not purposefully targeting innocent civilians? What evidence we do we have that you're not a rapist? The burden of proof is on the person making the claim and trying to put the claim into a question does not excuse you.

But if you must, Israel records all of the strikes and publishes them for all to view. You can even witness them calling off attacks due to civilians being in the way. You can look at the testimony of Palestinians claiming they received phone calls warning them in advance or that they had leaflets dropped on them warning them in advance. You can look at the Palestinian children hurt in the conflict that Israel brings to their own hospitals to provide care for. We could go on for days.

But what's the point, you're just trolling.
 
Any evidence for it? It's kinda up to you to present a narrative with evidence to support your assertions.

People above were claiming that Hamas is bad because they purposedly target civilians while Israel is not-s-bad or good because they do not purposedly target civilians and, if any Palestinian civilian gets killed, it is a mistake.
Since the number of Palestinian civilians killed by Israel is quite relevant, I am asking for evidence of the assertions of the above posters, that is, that Israel is taking all the precautions to avoid killing civilians.
 
Any evidence for this ?
I mean, for the fact that the Israeli military is not purposefully target civilians ?

Purposefully targeting civilians is a crime.

In questions of criminality, it is up to the person who is alleging a crime, to present evidence to support those allegations.

In the absence of such evidence, we conclude that no crime has been committed.

Are you alleging that Israel is purposefully targeting civilians? Yes or no?
 
Any evidence for this ?
I mean, for the fact that the Israeli military is not purposefully target civilians ?

Each and every time an Israeli strike ends up killing non-combatants it costs them dearly in terms of international propaganda and incitement of both local and non-local militants. The same occurrences are of great benefit to Hamas, etc..., for identical reasons. Which is exactly why the IDF spends through the nose to reduce collateral damage, while Hamas does everything it can to maximize it.

But I guess that reality, in this case, just doesn't fit into the whole anti-Zionist pre-packaged story line. So just keep on babbling about how everyone except you is an ideological slave.
 
Each and every time an Israeli strike ends up killing non-combatants it costs them dearly in terms of international propaganda and incitement of both local and non-local militants. The same occurrences are of great benefit to Hamas, etc..., for identical reasons. Which is exactly why the IDF spends through the nose to reduce collateral damage, while Hamas does everything it can to maximize it.

But I guess that reality, in this case, just doesn't fit into the whole anti-Zionist pre-packaged story line. So just keep on babbling about how everyone except you is an ideological slave.

Impressive.
The amount of “us vs them” mentality in this thread is simply impressive.

Point by point:
1) I have never said that Hamas does their best to minimize civilian casualties (or does anything at all, or even tries to maximize them)
2) I have never said that the IDF does not get bad reputation when they kill civilians
3) I have never called anyone disagreeing with me an “ideological slave”

I have read some statement and I have just asked for the evidence behind it.

And I get this kind of reply..
 
People above were claiming that Hamas is bad because they purposedly target civilians while Israel is not-s-bad or good because they do not purposedly target civilians and, if any Palestinian civilian gets killed, it is a mistake.
Since the number of Palestinian civilians killed by Israel is quite relevant, I am asking for evidence of the assertions of the above posters, that is, that Israel is taking all the precautions to avoid killing civilians.

You mean you're ignoring it. The reason that casualties are so much higher on the Palestinian side (and this has been explained to you several times already and probably 3 or 4 dozen times it has been stated on this very thread) is because Israel protects its civilians and Hamas uses them as a defense. Israel has laws requiring shelters be built in every building for people to take cover in. They build early warning systems to allow people to take cover. They built anti-missile defense systems to stop many of the missiles from reaching civilians.

Hamas does not build shelters for their civilians, they only build them for their military. They intentionally launch attacks from schools, hospitals and other civilian facilities knowing that when Israel takes out those munitions it will also result in civilian deaths. If you read through this thread you will see video clips from Hamas TV where they are bragging about how they use civilians for protection and brag about how they let civilians get killed. They claim they celebrate death like Jews celebrate life.

The fact that this thread is 253 pages in with examples on almost every page and you sit here asking for such examples demonstrates just how serious you aren't about this. While everyone else here is trying to have a serious discusion and welcomes all opposing views, you're here making a mockery of everything with these childish antics.

I think it's about time to ignore if you can't contribute anything to the thread.
 
You mean you're ignoring it. The reason that casualties are so much higher on the Palestinian side (and this has been explained to you several times already and probably 3 or 4 dozen times it has been stated on this very thread) is because Israel protects its civilians and Hamas uses them as a defense. .

I am not talking about Hamas.
I am talking about Israel
I am asking what is the IDF doing to reduce as much as possible civilian casualties

Israel has laws requiring shelters be built in every building for people to take cover in. They build early warning systems to allow people to take cover. They built anti-missile defense systems to stop many of the missiles from reaching civilians.

And I assume that we can blame Hamas as they can not build their anti-missile defense with Gaza under embargo from Israel..
 
I am not talking about Hamas.
I am talking about Israel
I am asking what is the IDF doing to reduce as much as possible civilian casualties

YOU are ignoring the dozens of responses that addressed your question. You are ignoring the 248 pages on this thread that address your question.

You have still not answered as to how we can know you are not a serial rapist and that you are doing as much as you can to prevent yourself from raping people. See how we can both play this game?

And I assume that we can blame Hamas as they can not build their anti-missile defense with Gaza under embargo from Israel..

Now you can scroll back and see where I predicted that you would make this argument when I was responding to your earlier. I also addressed in the same post where I predicted you would make such a claim. Guess what your response was to that? "I'm not talking about Hamas".

You're going to have to start coming up with more than 2 canned responses to everything. You're gonna have to learn to read the stuff you don't want to read. Perhaps you can start by explaining why the responses that people have been making to you that provide answers to your questions are not valid instead of plugging your ears and pretending they don't exist.

You're not going to be taken serious until you can start having an adult conversation.
 
Oh and BTW, You were talking about the Palestinian civilians for which Hamas is responsible for and the government of, so the whole "I am not talking about Hamas avoidance tactic is BS.

"Since the number of Palestinian civilians killed by Israel is quite relevant"
 
Even though it's futile to jump through Mekki's hoops, I'll indulge him this once:



and a more recent interview after Pillar of Defense.

 
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