General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Dcdrac]

Maybe its time to have one secular single state with guaranteed rights for all made up of Israel and the Palistinian areas, religion strictly kept out of the civic and political arena?

 

[The Don]

lolwut. Have we been reading the same thread?

Parts of the West Bank have been settled by Israelis and the West Bank Barrier now protects these settlements. Israel has stated that they consider East Jerusalem to be part of Israel, it was originally part of a proposed Palestine.

The WWII equivalent would be for France to create settlements in the French Zone of Occupation in the late 40's and 50's and then claim that those settlements, and a corridor to access them were part of France.

That said, I personally believe that Israel is prepared to accept a Palestinian state but that some of their conditions for allowing such a state, although understandable, are unacceptable to the Palestinians, specifically:

• The whole of Jerusalem to be part of Israel
• Israel to retain parts of of the West Bank (the best bits?)
• Israel to contol the borders and airspace of the Palestinian state

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Maybe its time to have one secular single state with guaranteed rights for all made up of Israel and the Palistinian areas, religion strictly kept out of the civic and political arena?

I agree with this, but the arguments others have brought forward are

1) it means that there will be pogroms against Israel's Jewish population
2) it means Israel won't be majority Jewish any more, and so won't be a safe place for Jewish people to go if there's another holocaust or other persecution

 

[bit_pattern]

'Tel Aviv failed to defeat Hamas: Israeli politician'

Lol, not that I give a rats arse who is claiming victory, there's no winners in a conflict like this.

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Edited for civility.

 

[WildCat]

"Human rights group are still investigating the incidents, and Issam Younis, director of the Al Mezan Centre for Human Rights said he was unable to confirm who caught or killed the men.
“Some of the names that have been mentioned to me tonight [as collaborators who were killed] had already been charged and sentenced to death. They were not just taken from the street today and shot,” Mr Younis
said.
“Collaborators are a very serious issue in Palestinian society. According to many hundreds of cases there have been extremely serious crimes committed by collaborators, especially in situations like this.”

Really? Got a link detailing the arrests, charges, trial, appeals, etc? And I never knew you were such a hard-core death penalty supporter!

 

[uke2se]

Lol, not that I give a rats arse who is claiming victory, there's no winners in a conflict like this but capital LOL at the idiots in this thread crowing about their "victory" - talk about pwnage!

Lol at Hamas then?

 

[WildCat]

They're Middle-Eastern and holding up peace signs, what is so hard to understand about that? Westerners, man, I'm tellin' ya.

Those aren't peace signs, it's "V for victory" signs. And it's always a victory when you have dead babies to parade and an Israeli bus blown up.

 

[NWO Sentryman]

Maybe its time to have one secular single state with guaranteed rights for all made up of Israel and the Palistinian areas, religion strictly kept out of the civic and political arena?

, good luck with that. The One State Solution is probably up there with Half Life 2 Episode 3 as something that will never happen.

 

[Ziggurat]

The authors of virtually every article I've read by Westerners supportive of the Palestinians' struggle against the Israeli occupation of Palestine take pains to say that they think firing rockets at civilians is wrong.

And I can't tell you how many times I've seen a crackpot wannabe physicists propounding their own nonsensical theory of everything state that energy is conserved. It's not exactly impressive to get one easy thing right.

 

[bit_pattern]

Lol at Hamas then?

Wildcat, I don't need to support something in order to prove you wrong about it.

The sneering and logical fallaciousness is flowing thick and strong in the thread tonight!

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Edited for civility.

 

[uke2se]

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Moderated content removed.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread claiming victory. What I have seen is people rightly pointing out that Hamas shouldn't be claiming victory, as they were - as you put it - pwned.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

The authors of virtually every article I've read by Westerners supportive of the Palestinians' struggle against the Israeli occupation of Palestine take pains to say that they think firing rockets at civilians is wrong.

Then, and this is just a radical idea but here goes, then maybe they should withdraw support until Hamas stops doing it?

Supporting a group and going "Ohh but this is naughty!" does nothing to help anyone. Even if you support the Palestinian people if you are truly against rocketing civilians then withdraw support from Hamas, condemn them as murderers and tell the Palestinians you will support them when they elect a leadership that isn't firing rockets at civilian buses, or shooting at humanitarian convoys with RPG's, or celerating the deaths of innocent Israelis as well as those of the IDF.

Just maybe the problem isn't that these people agree with everything Hamas does but that they do not condemn them hard enough for it to make a blind bit of difference.

 

[WildCat]

And, Wildcat, I don't need to support something in order to prove you wrong about it.

So the word of the genocidal terrorist group Hamas is all that you need to believe that those guys shot and dragged through the streets really were Israeli spies and they received a fair and transparent trial?

And you are now a strong death penalty proponent, yes? At least when it's done in secret by a kangaroo court operated by a genocidal terrorist organization.

 

[Mycroft]

Here's a wild stab in the dark, why doesn't the Gaza Strip and the West Bank get put under United Nations control with the understanding that eventually those areas will form an independent Palestine. That way, the UN could ensure that:

a) rockets aren't stockpiled

b) proper medical and humanitarian supplies can get in without arms being smuggled into the territories

c) the UN forces can prevent the building of new Israeli settlements

d) keep the peace

That way, there won't have to be endless provocations, protestations of innocence, accusations of one side dehumanizing the other, and a generally accepted form of arbitration and move towards the two-state solution that everyone says they want.

The practical answer to this question is because the UN is a toothless organization, and wherever the blue helmets go they go under rules of engagement that are so strict as to make them useless.

Other than that I don't necessarily think it's a bad idea.

 

[Locknar]

As always, please keep the discussion civil/polite, on topic, and address the argument.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Locknar

 

[Mycroft]

Hamas has only been a major player in this conflict for the last 10 - 15 years, there's been plenty of opportunity and plenty of other players. Israel prefers to empower terrorists (Arafat, Hamas) than deal with moderates because it gives them justification to perpetuate conflict. Israel has always been playing a long game.

Again with this conspiracy theory.

As a parliamentary democracy, a "long game" strategy makes no sense as you could never guarantee a new administration would follow the game-plan. On the Arab side, however, Arafat called the shots for more than three decades and passed the reins to his successor, who still rules today.

Oh, but if it's Jooz doing it, you can just assume they're collaborating in secret or something.

 

[WildCat]

Oh, but if it's Jooz doing it, you can just assume they're collaborating in secret or something.

Exactly, they've been doing it for thousands of years. Sneaky sneaky sneaky those Jews are! Like when they tricked the Nazis into the Holocaust so that they could get Israel. bikerdruid has a link that explains it all.

 

[Mycroft]

Oh and you do know that there were also plenty of Israelis who also rejected the partition such as Begin and the Lehi and the Stern Gang who also wanted the whole enchilada.

Lehi and the Stern Gang are different names for the same organization.

I'm not aware that any of these figures opposed the partition plan, but it is worth noting that the new Israeli government did disarm the more radical Lehi after Israel was founded.

 

[JihadJane]

Then, and this is just a radical idea but here goes, then maybe they should withdraw support until Hamas stops doing it?

My comment says nothing about supporting Hamas.

Supporting a group and going "Ohh but this is naughty!" does nothing to help anyone. Even if you support the Palestinian people if you are truly against rocketing civilians then withdraw support from Hamas, condemn them as murderers and tell the Palestinians you will support them when they elect a leadership that isn't firing rockets at civilian buses, or shooting at humanitarian convoys with RPG's, or celerating the deaths of innocent Israelis as well as those of the IDF.

Just maybe the problem isn't that these people agree with everything Hamas does but that they do not condemn them hard enough for it to make a blind bit of difference.

Did someone accidentally press the Automated Response button?

My comment says nothing about supporting Hamas.

 

[Mycroft]

The settlements are built outside the `67 Israeli borders.
That is, Israel territory expands gradually taking out homes and land from territory where Palestinians live.

http://www.thehypertexts.com/images/israel-palestine_map.jpg

Edited by LashL: 

Changed hotlink to regular link. Please see Rule 5.

That graphic gets thrown around a lot and it's great propaganda, but it's created through the logical fallacy of changing definitions.

The first picture shows "Jewish land" as only land directly owned by individual Jews or Jewish organizations. By contrast, everything else is labeled "Palestinian land", even public lands and lands owned by distant land-owners.

The second picture incorrectly labels Israeli land as "Jewish land", while ignoring land owned by Jews that would have been in the Arab state and land owned by Arabs that would have been in Israel.

The third picture conflates Jewish and Israeli by using the same colour for Israeli land as previously used for Jewish land, and ignores Arab owned land in the state of Israel.

The fourth picture shows "Palestinian land" as only being the land under control of the Palestinian Authority after the Oslo Accords, Ironically and dishonestly presenting an increase in self-determination and control as a decrease, while dishonestly labeling everything under Israeli military control as "Israeli land", even when there are Palestinian-Arabs living on it.