General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[L.Y.S.]

I said it was a matter of subjectivity, not relativity. There is a difference.



Quite true. There are many subjective issues on which vast majorities agree. That doesn't make these issues not subjective.



And yet, it is subjective, regardless of whether people understand that.

You seem to have a problem with that conclusion. I wonder why. Perhaps you think that if you acknowledge that this value is subjective, you will have to abandon it. That is not true, but I can see no other reason to object to my position.

But let's not forget where this topic came from. bikerdruid tried to dismiss a claim about the superiority of Eastern European culture to Islamic culture on the grounds that this evaluation was subjective. And it is quite true that that evaluation is subjective. But you, for example, seem intent on defending the validity of a subjective value judgment. And the truth is that I actually share common ground with you in the sense that we both think genocide is an appalling wrong. That I consider this subjective does not mean I believe it any less firmly.

So if we have a subjective value that we consider valid and worth defending vociferously, then the fact that a value is subjective is not sufficient to dismiss it. bikerdruid's objection cannot withstand logical scrutiny without abandoning the very concepts of right and wrong. Now, you may or may not agree with Virus about his specific subjective evaluation of the merits of Arab culture vs. Eastern European culture, but in order to ague against his position, you need some grounds other than bikerdruid's to do so.

But of course, bikerdruid offered nothing more than pointing out the subjectivity of Virus's statement. It was an intellectually lazy response which has no logical coherence outside of absolute moral relativism, and that position itself would be in drastic conflict with your own expressed abhorence for genocide.

Very well, premises granted out of convenience. I see nothing wrong with the argument initially, and I can’t be bothered to argue otherwise. Perhaps genocide was not the best subject to use though?

 

[bit_pattern]

. We know this from the transparent, fair, western-style trial they received in the 15 minutes between being accused of the crime and when they were shot and dragged through the streets.
.

"Human rights group are still investigating the incidents, and Issam Younis, director of the Al Mezan Centre for Human Rights said he was unable to confirm who caught or killed the men.
“Some of the names that have been mentioned to me tonight [as collaborators who were killed] had already been charged and sentenced to death. They were not just taken from the street today and shot,” Mr Younis
said.
“Collaborators are a very serious issue in Palestinian society. According to many hundreds of cases there have been extremely serious crimes committed by collaborators, especially in situations like this.”

 

[John Mekki]

Except this part is demonstratably untrue. Israel has been for a 2-State solution for, well since 1948. Their main conditions have been that they are a) recognised as a State by the Arab world, and b) left along in peace.

Then why they are trying to block the recognition of the Palestinian state by the UN?

Having said that, there certain are reasons for criticing Irael's action, including the continuation of building on the West Bank and the treatment of Israeli Arabs,

Thank God for the "cetrain reasons"

What you also have to understand is that Israel occupying Palestinian land means "Israel existing," as Palestinians see all of Palestine as Palestinian land.

Outside the `67 borders?

I disagree that everyone does this.

Most people do.
Please look at the comments written in this very thread.

 

[Giz]

“Collaborators are a very serious issue in Palestinian society. According to many hundreds of cases there have been extremely serious crimes committed by collaborators, especially in situations like this.”

Yeah, genocidal fascist anti-semites do tend to have it in for dissenters, take Hamas's ideological soulmates treatment of the red orchestra:

"Their primary activity was the distribution of leaflets to incite civil disobedience and cause the Nazis to worry about subversion. ...

The network began to unravel in 1942. ... The rest of the group was arrested within a few weeks, and many were executed "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Orchestra_(espionage)#German_counter-intelligence_operations

 

[trustbutverify]

Well, I certainly hope this guy was actually guilty of collaborating with the ZionistEntity. I'm sure he was given every opportunity to mount a vigorous defense.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Then why they are trying to block the recognition of the Palestinian state by the UN?

Mostly becaue they're doing it the wrong way. Israel wants to get the situation sorted first, come to an agreement about the settlements, where the borders should be, how Israel's security can be gauranteed once it occurs, recognition of Israel in return, and other things that need to be settled. The PA has rufused to do that, and just went to the UN and demanded recognition. I'd note that Hamas also opposes it, as do a lot of other countries who believe that the current situation needs dealing with properly first.

Thank God for the "cetrain reasons"

Do you think that instead one should find no fault even where fault lies, or find fault with everything Israel does even when there is no fault? I thouight you were against that sort of Black and White Us vs Them thinking.

Outside the `67 borders?

Only if you mean 1867

Most people do.
Please look at the comments written in this very thread.

I don't consider this thread a representative sample of "most people."

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Ok, what relevance does this picture have?

They're Middle-Eastern and holding up peace signs, what is so hard to understand about that? Westerners, man, I'm tellin' ya.

 

[Virus]

Yes: Comparisons with Japan and Germany are not relevant because the Palestinians remain undefeated.

You watch how quickly they'd wave the white flag if they stopped getting bailed out from the skirmishes they start and slathered in welfare.

While you romanticize terrorists (makes sense since radical leftists invented modern political terrorism) in actual fact terrorists are nothing but punks. And Hamas are punks who think they're tough shooting missiles then hiding behind women's burkas.

Why did Hezbollah back down from their boast of coming to Hamas's aid with rocket barrages of their own? Because they're punks and deterrence works.

Senior Hamas terrorists killed:

Ahmed Jabari, head of Hamas’ military wing – targeted on November 14
Hab’s Hassan Us Msamch, senior operative in Hamas’ police – targeted on November 15
Ahmed Abu Jalal, Commander of the military wing in Al-Muazi – targeted on November 16
Khaled Shaer, senior operative in the anti-tank operations – targeted on November 16
Osama Kadi, senior operative in the smuggling operations in the southern Gaza Strip – targeted on November 17
Muhammad Kalb, senior operative in the aerial defense operations – targated on November 17
Ramz Harb, Islamic Jihad senior operative in propaganda in Gaza city – targeted on November 19

This means several branches of Hamas are now running around like panicked, headless chickens. The senior commanders, if not already, will probably be making a rat-line to Egypt.

 

[PhantomWolf]

You watch how quickly they'd wave the white flag if they stopped getting bailed out from the skirmishes they start and slathered in welfare.

While you romanticize terrorists (makes sense since radical leftists invented modern political terrorism) in actual fact terrorists are nothing but punks. And Hamas are punks who think they're tough shooting missiles then hiding behind women's burkas.

Why did Hezbollah back down from their boast of coming to Hamas's aid with rocket barrages of their own? Because they're punks and deterrence works.

Senior Hamas terrorists killed:



This means several branches of Hamas are now running around like panicked, headless chickens. The senior commanders, if not already, will probably be making a rat-line to Egypt.

How dare you insinuate that they didn't win. Hamas has declared victory and stated that they deafeated Israel.

 

[Virus]

How dare you insinuate that they didn't win. Hamas has declared victory and stated that they deafeated Israel.

Gazan killed and three wounded by celebratory gunfire.

That shooting bullets in the air thing might sound cool but what goes up must come down.

 

[Ziggurat]

So I thought it was bigoted when Virus and Ziggurat said Palestinians would never want peace because of, respectively, culture and religion.

I didn't say they would never want peace. But you asked what the difference between the Romanians and the Palestinians. And religion is a huge part of that difference, and it is a big difference. They may one day want peace, but they don't right now.

True, but plenty of Jewish people oppose the settlements. I bet plenty of Palestinians aren't genocidal.

That may be, but a depressingly large number of them are, and they're the ones in charge.

 

[trustbutverify]

Gazan killed and three wounded by celebratory gunfire.

That shooting bullets in the air thing might sound cool but what goes up must come down.

Could somebody please explain what Hamas members think they "won"? That a few of their leaders aren't dead yet? That not every one of their missiles was downed?

 

[JihadJane]

The Israel/Palestinian issue in summary:
1) pro-Israeli groups blame Hamas for launching rockets and for not recognizing the State of Israel but say nothing about the fact that Israel occupies Palestinian land and does not want a Palestinian State
2) pro-Palestinian groups blame Israel about the fact that Israel occupies Palestinian land and does not want a Palestinian State but say nothing about the fact that Hamas is launching rockets and not recognizing the State of Israel
In conclusion, every of the two groups points fingers at what the other is doing wrong and does not look at what they are doing wrong themselves.
A typical case of “us vs them” mentality
And round and round we go..

The authors of virtually every article I've read by Westerners supportive of the Palestinians' struggle against the Israeli occupation of Palestine take pains to say that they think firing rockets at civilians is wrong.

 

[JihadJane]

'Hamas chief thanks Iran for its support during war on Gaza'

Can we expect Israel's chief to make a similar announcement expressing his gratitude to the US for its role in financing and arming Israel?

Hamas Political Bureau Chief Khaled Meshaal has thanked the Islamic Republic of Iran for helping the Gaza Strip in its victory against the Israeli regime’s attack.

Mashal made the remarks in a press conference in Cairo on Tuesday, adding Iran "had a role in arming” and financing Gazans during the war.

Edited by Locknar: 

SNIPed, breach of rule 4.

Gaza has been blockaded since 2007, a situation that has caused a decline in the standard of living, unrelenting poverty, and unprecedented unemployment rate among the population of about 1.7 million Palestinians.

 

[Toontown]

In the Arab world, it is always gratifying when weapons suitable only for specifically targeting civilians are provided in large numbers.

Especially when the weapons are supplied by the Arabs' dear friends, the Persians.

 

[JihadJane]

'Tel Aviv failed to defeat Hamas: Israeli politician'

An Israeli politician says Tel Aviv has failed to defeat the Palestinian resistance movement Hamas and to achieve its objectives during the eight-day onslaught on the besieged Gaza Strip.

On Wednesday, Yesh Atid Chairman Yair Lapid said Israel's truce with Hamas “comes too late and without meeting the goals… set for the [Israeli] operation,” the Israeli website Ynetnews reported.

“Israel negotiated with the group [Hamas] and failed to defeat it" although Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had promised otherwise, Lapid added.

 

[Virus]

Could somebody please explain what Hamas members think they "won"? That a few of their leaders aren't dead yet? That not every one of their missiles was downed?

There's a few cultural factors involved. Remember that no Arab army has won a war in hundreds of years. They're too pathetic to win anything. So they're standards are low, they're desperate and their "wins" are symbolic. Because they weren't completely wiped out, they imagine themselves to have "won".

This isn't uncommon. Saddam claimed he "won" against the Persians and that he "won" the first Gulf War. The Egyptians said they were "winning" the Six-Day War even when their air-force was bombed out.

Also if you admit you lose, then you are admitting you're weak. In Arab culture, the strong rule the weak and the weak take their lumps. The moment the strong become weak, they're pounced upon by rivals who seek to displace them.

Self-delusion only gets you so far though. Thumping their chests among rubble, while their leaders are bunkered isn't going to bring back their senior command, logistics network, smuggling tunnels and arms caches.

Save your breath lefties. I know it's not politically correct. But violent Islamic terrorist hellholes aren't politically correct.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

1) pro-Israeli groups blame Hamas for launching rockets and for not recognizing the State of Israel but say nothing about the fact that Israel occupies Palestinian land and does not want a Palestinian State

lolwut. Have we been reading the same thread?

ETA:
Just to illustrate how war something means occupation...
http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/38/110738-004-46400CD3.gif

...here's a map of Allied incursions into Europe in 1944. They claimed they went to war to defend themselves, but look! They're marching into German lands! Imperialists!

 

[Virus]

Delete.

 

[Toontown]

The authors of virtually every article I've read by Westerners supportive of the Palestinians' struggle against the Israeli occupation of Palestine take pains to say that they think firing rockets at civilians is wrong.

Yes, you're all very noble, willing to fight the Jews to the last drop of Palestinian blood. Presumably you all know that ineptly targeting civilians will not do the desired job on the Jews.