General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Mycroft]

it clearly delineates palestinian territory, which israel has totally ignored.

Does it really?!

Please cite the passages that do that.

 

[Mycroft]

Who was it that said that Palestinians need to start loving their kids more than they hate Israel? Because as long as they keep their children around them when they fire rockets at Israel, children are going to die. Surely they know that.

It was Golda Meir who said, "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us. "

 

[Ziggurat]

So I wonder why it is, with so much that Hamas or the Palestinian Authority could be doing to advance peace but are not, so many from a certain part of the political spectrum can only ever think to put demands on the Israeli side of the equation.

The most charitable interpretation is that this is because Israel is the only side which will actually make any moves towards peace. They push against the only side that will budge. But as Orwell pointed out decades ago in regards to another conflict, it's a self-defeating strategy:

Pacifism is objectively pro-Fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side you automatically help that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me’. The idea that you can somehow remain aloof from and superior to the struggle, while living on food which British sailors have to risk their lives to bring you, is a bourgeois illusion bred of money and security. Mr Savage remarks that ‘according to this type of reasoning, a German or Japanese pacifist would be “objectively pro-British”.’ But of course he would be! That is why pacifist activities are not permitted in those countries (in both of them the penalty is, or can be, beheading) while both the Germans and the Japanese do all they can to encourage the spread of pacifism in British and American territories. The Germans even run a spurious ‘freedom’ station which serves out pacifist propaganda indistinguishable from that of the P.P.U. They would stimulate pacifism in Russia as well if they could, but in that case they have tougher babies to deal with. In so far as it takes effect at all, pacifist propaganda can only be effective against those countries where a certain amount of freedom of speech is still permitted; in other words it is helpful to totalitarianism.

There's a term for such people. Of course, there are also malicious motives for such double standards in regards to Israel. I won't accuse anyone here of being driven by antisemitism, but it exists, and it's pretty wide-spread.

 

[CTB]

I've got a quick question...

Out of all the people posting here, who is posting from, as in geographically located in, Israel or Gaza?

It has been fascinating to watch all the experts from both sides display their expertise, but who can I trust to talk from their own personal experience regards the death and destruction?

It seems that while a war rages there are quite a lot of posers. Prove me wrong.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I'm sure it will a refreshing debate that will bring many new insights into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Either that or a replay of every other Israel-Palestine thread on the JREF.

Maybe the mods can temporarily let Parky and Sceptic into the thread, for those of us who are feeling nostalgic.

I vote yes to Eddie's proposal.

Egypt could do something pretty bad to Israel: re-militarise the Sinai. Having the Egyptian army on it's borders would mean having a standing army ready and that would put a huge drain on Israel's economy. OTOH Israel can probably wipe out the entire Egyptian army if they were stupid enough to sit in the desert.

The Brother's will have to throw the masses an anti-Israeli bone though.
Erdogan had it easy in that respect, he could just tell Shimon Peres to take a long walk on short pier on live TV, and all of Turkey loved him for it.
If the Brothers are really Machiavellian: Preach Jihad, call for volunteers, employ human wave attacks against Israel. The next twenty years no chance of revolution with all those angry young men gone.

Hmm, do you think the Brotherhood are that smart, in terms of political strat?

I should have known better than to post in an Israel thread. its not worth it.

Understatment of the decade.

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us. - Golda Meir in 1957

I hope the Russians love their children too. I guess Sting was a freakin' plaigerist.

The Gaza strip is 365 sq km, populated by 1.7 million people (over half of whom are children btw), so that's a population density of 4657 per sq km - only Macau, Monaco, Singapore and Hong Kong have higher population densities. Could you imagine firing a Hellfire missile into Hong Kong and not killing someone?

Yes, since I know how to use a Hellfire in an urban/built up area. Not hard at all, so long as your party painting the target with the laser designator is doing his job properly. Your "argument from ignorance ought makes your credibility suffer a bit. The lack of discipline used to send off the salvos of rockets coming out of Gaza, on the other hand, lends credence to the assertion that the folks in Gaza don't care about how many innocents die.

I suppose it would be too much to expect a source to substantiate this assertion?

As noted above, hiding your head in the sand does not make for a good argument. Look at a map. A recent map.

perhaps,but an embargo does not restrict movement of people.

It can, as can a quarantine. Unless you know wtf you are talking about, suggest you keep your mouth shut, lest you come off as a fool.

The name {iron dome} appears to be an unintended irony.

I saw what you did there! Tee hee!

There is an election soon, is the current action occurring with an eye to that.

I suspect that's a factor, though the rocket attacks seem to have been an important trigger.

Jeezus, man. You gotta come up with a new dance. 233 stinking pages of this crap is enough. Papa needs a brand new bag, man. Why don't you go back to advocating voluntary extinction or something.

He wouldn't want to come off as bigoted or racist, ya see ...

 

[Ziggurat]

I hope the Russians love their children too. I guess Sting was a freakin' plaigerist.

And least he didn't steal from REO Speedwagon.

 

[WildCat]

I've got a quick question...

Out of all the people posting here, who is posting from, as in geographically located in, Israel or Gaza?

It has been fascinating to watch all the experts from both sides display their expertise, but who can I trust to talk from their own personal experience regards the death and destruction?

It seems that while a war rages there are quite a lot of posers. Prove me wrong.

AFAIK Dr. Evil and bigjelmapro are Israeli.

Does that mean no one else can discuss it?

 

[Stout]

 

[WildCat]

Hamas calls for a time out and a rule change that allows them to import heavy weapons so they can kill more Jews next time:

Gaza's Hamas rulers are aiming high in the conditions they place on stopping rocket fire into Israel in indirect cease-fire talks launched this weekend. Emboldened by Arab support and confident in their arsenal, the Islamists say calm can only come if Israel opens the gates of the tiny, closed-off territory.

Yeah, right.

 

[trustbutverify]

I've yet to read a clear and direct answer as to the morally appropriate, short term Israeli response to a sustained enemy rocket barrage. I understand thezionistentity is an evil cancer and Nazi doppelganger, so it deserves to be attacked. Still, what should they do when fired upon? What is an acceptable immediate response?

 

[bit_pattern]

The message here is pretty clear: if we can't kill you, we'll come after your kids

Nine members of the one family died in this blast – all women and children, along with two neighbours who were walking past the house when the missile hit also died.
The Israeli Defence Force confirmed it had targeted the house of a Hamas man, believed to be Mohamed Dallu, who was not home at the time of the attack. His four children died – Sara, 7, Jamal, 6, Yusef, 4, and Ibrahim, 2.
A spokesman would not comment on the air strike or the high number of civilian casualties, except to say the IDF was “looking into the reports”.[/quote[

http://m.theage.com.au/world/deadliest-day-children-killed-in-gaza-air-raids-20121119-29ks4.html

 

[applecorped]

The message here is pretty clear: if we can't kill you, we'll come after your kids

That sums up Hamas nicely.



Thank you.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Some footage of a politician and his supporters talking about "erasing" the other side:

 

[bit_pattern]

Some footage of a politician and his supporters talking about "erasing" the other side:

Was about to post the same video (I think)

Warning NSFW for Hebrew speakers, very strong language in English subtitles

Kachnik MK Michael Ben-Ari:

"There are no innocents in Gaza!" (In response to the death of 9 children!)

"Security means erasing Gaza"

Crowd chants "erase Gaza" & "expel leftists"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZP1Pe3J2Dc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

*Sits back and awaits the vitriol and denial*

 

[tyr_13]

The most charitable interpretation is that this is because Israel is the only side which will actually make any moves towards peace. They push against the only side that will budge. But as Orwell pointed out decades ago in regards to another conflict, it's a self-defeating strategy:



There's a term for such people. Of course, there are also malicious motives for such double standards in regards to Israel. I won't accuse anyone here of being driven by antisemitism, but it exists, and it's pretty wide-spread.

I had this argument with a friend today. He held the Palestinians to such a lower standard than the Israelis that it was tragic, yet he accused 'us' (the West specifically) of having a racist attitude toward the Palestinians based on the attitudes of British WWII bomber pilots. It's hard to believe anyone is unable to see the problem with being so patronizing to a group!

While I have plenty to criticize Israel about, I don't hold Palestinians to a lower standard. They need to stop the rocket attacks at the very least.

 

[tyr_13]

Some footage of a politician and his supporters talking about "erasing" the other side:

I dislike violent fanatic extremists and would urge Israelis to speak out against that sort of attitude.

 

[angrysoba]

Here's a wild stab in the dark, why doesn't the Gaza Strip and the West Bank get put under United Nations control with the understanding that eventually those areas will form an independent Palestine. That way, the UN could ensure that:

a) rockets aren't stockpiled

b) proper medical and humanitarian supplies can get in without arms being smuggled into the territories

c) the UN forces can prevent the building of new Israeli settlements

d) keep the peace

That way, there won't have to be endless provocations, protestations of innocence, accusations of one side dehumanizing the other, and a generally accepted form of arbitration and move towards the two-state solution that everyone says they want.

 

[bit_pattern]

I dislike violent fanatic extremists and would urge Israelis to speak out against that sort of attitude.

Won't happen sadly, those views are mainstream now, you can read the same sentiments in daily newspapers like the Jerusalem Post

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?ID=292466&R=R1&utm_

Gilad Sharon, son of former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, wrote an op-ed on Sunday calling for even more aggressive Israeli strikes in Gaza.
"We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza," states Sharon in The Jerusalem Post.

(...)

Sharon writes in his op-ed that "the residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences." After saying that Israel needs to "flatten all of Gaza," he goes on to say, "The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobil...srael-gaza-op-ed_n_2155932.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

 

[tyr_13]

Won't happen sadly, those views are mainstream now, you can read the same sentiments in daily newspapers like the Jerusalem Post

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?ID=292466&R=R1&utm_

Gilad Sharon, son of former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, wrote an op-ed on Sunday calling for even more aggressive Israeli strikes in Gaza.
"We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza," states Sharon in The Jerusalem Post.

(...)

Sharon writes in his op-ed that "the residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences." After saying that Israel needs to "flatten all of Gaza," he goes on to say, "The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobil...srael-gaza-op-ed_n_2155932.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

Well they did elect Hamas. It isn't possible to divorce what Hamas is doing from the Palestinian wishes. The argument 'that's not the Palestinian's, it's all Hamas' doing' is therefore vacuous. They aren't 'innocent' in that regard.

The second part implicitly means that if the attacks stopped, they 'surrendered', then the fighting would stop.

That's about the only things of value I can extract out of those vile quotes. However, those cites do not prove that it's what most Israelis believe (son of a former prime minster? So?). There are views that are mainstream but not necessarily majority in Israel which I find abhorrent.

That doesn't mean the rocket attacks shouldn't stop or that Hamas in in the right. At best it's a tu quoque.

 

[John Mekki]

Hamas calls for a time out and a rule change that allows them to import heavy weapons so they can kill more Jews next time:

Yeah, right.

Does this have anything to do with the non-recognition of the State of Palestine from Israel?
If Israel wants pease, why then not recognizing the State of Palestine first based on the 67 borders?
How not recognizing the State of Palestine is supposed to be a way to avoid genocide?
And what about the stealing of land in the West Bank?