iPhone 5

[funk de fino]

You seriously have to be just kidding now right?

Are you completely new to logic?

Aside from it being a response to a claim, it is itself not a claim at all, it is merely logic. It even contains the word "relatively".

You asked for times when you made assumptions. I gave you one. You asked for times you made claims. You were given them. You asked for times you made mistakes you were given them. Yet you still handwave it all away.

If we have no evidence that either company has an extraordinary system of shipping for demand then we can safely assume that both companies would have a similar shipped vs sold ratio to correspond with their supply and demand forecasts.

We already know that Apple give sales figures. You made assumptions. Ergo, I claimed you did. You seemed to imply you didnt.

If you think that is a claim, then you are either very confused about logic or you are just grasping at straws.

We know what your claim is, we just wanted it backed up. You accusing me of lying is very rich. If this is the case, show me exactly where I lied. Or retract.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

Thank god

I won't go quite that far

I have not had a bad experience using apple maps so far.

It is also rumored that the new google maps app will have turn by turn. If so, then apple has done all iOS users a service, as google has not previously offered turn-by-turn on iOS devices. Competition seems to have worked out in the users favor in this instance.

 

[carlitos]

I like Tom Tom, so I like the interface for apple maps. But it has been brutal lately outside of big US cities. I'm in a Canadian provincial Capital city, and the iPhone has no clue where anything is. It's consistently a block or more off on urban destinations. I look forward to the google app.

 

[This is The End]

We already know that Apple give sales figures.

Wait a second, are you still trying to claim that the original article was shipped VS sold??

Here's the original article that set off Apple fan damage control lo so many pages ago:

http://www.reghardware.com/2012/10/26/samsung_ships_two_smartphones_for_every_one_apple/

Samsung’s share was 35.2 per cent, achieved by shipping 56.9 million smartphones.

As ABI noted, that’s more the twice the 26.9 million units Apple shipped during the same three-month period

If you aren't, then I am wondering why you bring that up. That claim was debunked merely by reading beyond the headline into the first few paragraphs!

So after failing at that, you both tried to imply that there is some huge shipped/sold ratio discrepancy. And that Samsung is hoarding them all in some warehouse somewhere instead of actually selling them!

I immediately demanded evidence for that claim.

Saying that Apple gives sales figures has absolutely nothing to do with you proving that there is some huge difference in the shipped/sold ratio between the two companies.

You need the sales and shipped figures from both companies to prove that. Just finding the sales figures from one of the companies doesn't give you the shipped/sold ratio for both companies!

If you want to just make claims without backing them up, this is the wrong place to do it.

 

[This is The End]

How exactly did you debunk it. It was pointed out to you that the article was wrong, because apple releases sales numbers, not shipped numbers

It's pretty sad that you don't even see why that is wrong.

Companies have both Shipped and Sold numbers.

I seriously doubt you deny that...

The article had the sold numbers. Just because Apple also releases sold numbers doesn't mean the article didn't have the shipped numbers. That is just ridiculous.

You finding sold numbers that are close to the shipped numbers only shows how tight these companies keep the shipped/sold ratio. They are right on top of supply and demand.

At the same time you want us to believe that Samsung is different. They keep all theirs in a warehouse somewhere!!

 

[This is The End]

Can you please go ahead and quote where I made that claim ? Pretty please ? Which post ?

I quoted it several times. You hope people have missed it I'm sure:

Regardless, I would expect a manufacturer selling 25+ models of phone, most priced less than an iPhone, to sell. Wouldn't you ??

As I said, I would expect a company that makes 25+ models of smartphones to outsell a company that makes 1 model. It is not particularly surprising or impressive.

Obviously a claim that if we did a 1 Phone VS 1 Phone comparison then it would be "surprising and/or impressive". That Apple would sell more if we did that comparison. Notice the word "outsell" in your quote.

Then you had to damage control your damage control. Which only digs a deeper hole.

You made the claim that if you count all the iPhones as "1 phone" that it is on top.

As I said, I would expect a company that makes 25+ models of smartphones to outsell a company that makes 1 model. It is not particularly surprising or impressive.

It is clearly TheL8Elvis's claim that if you do a "1 phone" vs "1 phone" comparison that Apple would be selling more. It's your claim, you have to back it up. Even if it were true, which it isn't, it would really just be a sad justification. Clearly you are partial to Apple and are just digging for a metric that makes you feel better.

All I did was point out that if you are counting the iPhone as "1 phone" then you have to count the Samsung Galaxy S line of phones as "1 phone" as well.

iPhone 3GS = Galaxy S

iPhone 4 = Galaxy S II
iPhone 4S = Galaxy S II Skyrocket
iPhone 5 = Galaxy S III

Telling you what numbers you need to find to back up your claim doesn't suddenly make it my claim!!

Then you both accuse me of making the claim and not backing it up. Even though I just explained that it wasn't my claim a few posts ago.

I'm sorry but that is not only not how it works here at the JREF, no one is going to fall for such nonsense.

Showing quite clearly that a 1 Phone VS 1 Phone comparison would not even work as Apple fan damage control.

So then you backtracked and said "OH I was just pointing out that the iPhone was one phone and Samsung is 25 PLUS phones to show why Samsung sells more"

A hilarious goalpost move that I thoroughly smashed:

Seriously?

You are disavowing the claim that if you compare just the "one iPhone" to one Samsung phone that Apple would be selling more?

Not only that but you are saying you never made that claim?

That you meant something else entirely when you said that the only reason Samsung is selling lots of phones is because "they have 25 PLUS phones and Apple only has 1".

I'm sooooo sure that you were only pointing out the obvious, that a company that has "25 PLUS phones" would have a better chance of selling more phones than a company that only has 1 phone (or 3 if you aren't in Apple fanboy parallel zone).

There's absolutely no way you were trying to imply that if we did a 1 to 1 comparison that Apple would be selling more.... http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif And that you just waited until 2 weeks after it was called out to tell us that....

I assume since you didn't make that claim we won't be hearing it from you again in the future either? We can only hope. Because an argument that doesn't even turn out to be true is a sad argument indeed.

It's pretty hilarious that the rest of your current post is an exact duplicate of mine. You made the claim first and now you deny it. There is no getting around that fact.

You made the claim.

You back it up.

That's how it works here.

As I said, I would expect a company that makes 25+ models of smartphones to outsell a company that makes 1 model. It is not particularly surprising or impressive.

So, please, show us how if we did a 1 Phone vs. 1 Phone comparison that it would be Apple on top.

Also notice how in the last several posts I was being gracious and not even pointing out that you flat out lied and said Apple only makes 1 phone, when in reality they currently offer 3.

 

[This is The End]

What's funny is, after the now famous article was posted (in the very next post after the article in fact!), you tried 2 arguments for damage control in ONE post:

"Samsung ships two smartphones for every one Apple sells" kind of says it all, doesn't it ?

Regardless, I would expect a manufacturer selling 25+ models of phone, most priced less than an iPhone, to sell. Wouldn't you ??

The first claim was easily debunked merely by reading beyond the headline.

The second claim was an old Apple fan standby that was thoroughly debunked by a poster here at JREF several months ago.

You then went on for pages trying to damage control your failed damage control on both points!

The first claim, that it was shipped vs sold.

First you said it was not a valid comparison because it was shipped vs sold. Easily debunked.

Then you tried to claim it was not a valid comparison because there is some huge difference in the shipped/sold ratio over at Samsung. With no evidence. Evidence of that was demanded, and you floundered.

Then you went back to see if you could breathe some life into the first claim. You went and found sold numbers from Apple. You said "see Apple gives sold numbers!! They are similar to the shipped numbers from the article!! The article must have been wrong!!". It never even crossed your mind that maybe companies just keep a tight shipped/sold ratio....


Now on to the second claim.

That is that Samsung is only selling more because they have 25 PLUS phones and Apple only has 1.

Regardless, I would expect a manufacturer selling 25+ models of phone, most priced less than an iPhone, to sell. Wouldn't you ??

You even clarified the claim here:

As I said, I would expect a company that makes 25+ models of smartphones to outsell a company that makes 1 model. It is not particularly surprising or impressive.

Everyone can see the world "outsell" in that claim. Clearly you are implying (as your second method of damage control) that, were it not so, Apple would be the one "outselling". With no evidence at all.

It was then pointed out that if you do a 1 VS 1 comparison of the 3 Galaxy S phones to their 3 sister iPhones that Apple would still be outsold.

First you tried to demand evidence of that claim!

Even though it was originally your claim that Apple would be outselling in a fair 1 vs 1 comparison.

After you realized that doesn't fly here at the JREF, and that you would be the one that has to present those numbers, you then did this new hilarious dance of trying to claim that that isn't what you were claiming at all!! Funny how you didn't tell us that until after you found out that you would be the one that has to give us the numbers....


Then again you post that you were merely pointing out how one company is selling more. And that you were merely pointing it out for no reason at all!! Which, I might say, is some of the weirdest damage control I have yet to see.

 

[funk de fino]

I won't go quite that far

I have not had a bad experience using apple maps so far.

I take it you are in the USA? It is garbage. Try using it for Dubai.

It is also rumored that the new google maps app will have turn by turn. If so, then apple has done all iOS users a service, as google has not previously offered turn-by-turn on iOS devices. Competition seems to have worked out in the users favor in this instance.

Don't use that anyway.

 

[funk de fino]

Wait a second, are you still trying to claim that the original article was shipped VS sold??

Here's the original article that set off Apple fan damage control lo so many pages ago:

http://www.reghardware.com/2012/10/26/samsung_ships_two_smartphones_for_every_one_apple/




If you aren't, then I am wondering why you bring that up. That claim was debunked merely by reading beyond the headline into the first few paragraphs!

So after failing at that, you both tried to imply that there is some huge shipped/sold ratio discrepancy. And that Samsung is hoarding them all in some warehouse somewhere instead of actually selling them!

I immediately demanded evidence for that claim.

Saying that Apple gives sales figures has absolutely nothing to do with you proving that there is some huge difference in the shipped/sold ratio between the two companies.

You need the sales and shipped figures from both companies to prove that. Just finding the sales figures from one of the companies doesn't give you the shipped/sold ratio for both companies!

If you want to just make claims without backing them up, this is the wrong place to do it.

Why are you ignoring that fact you said I was lying? Is that another claim you cannot back up?

Lets see where I claimed there was a discrepancy in shipped numbers between the companies? Go on. Just try. It was you who assumed they would be the same.

So why are you so averse to get any figures and leave it to the rest of us? Just like assumptions eh? I have even went as far as getting sold versus sold. You just want to throw peanuts it seems.

Only seems to be one person lying here.

 

[This is The End]

Lets see where I claimed there was a discrepancy in shipped numbers between the companies? Go on. Just try. It was you who assumed they would be the same.

If no one is claiming there is a difference between the shipped/sold ratio of the two companies then why are we even talking about whether a sold vs. sold comparison is valid?

Either way, if I at any point attributed claims made by others to you then I apologize. I wouldn't be surprised in dozens of post and thousands of words I made a few mistakes.

 

[funk de fino]

If no one is claiming there is a difference between the shipped/sold ratio of the two companies then why are we even talking about whether a sold vs. sold comparison is valid?

Either way, if I at any point attributed claims made by others to you then I apologize. I wouldn't be surprised in dozens of post and thousands of words I made a few mistakes. [qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/images/smilies/redface.gif[/qimg]

Appreciated. Thanks.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I quoted it several times. You hope people have missed it I'm sure:

"Samsung ships two smartphones for every one Apple sells" kind of says it all, doesn't it ?

Regardless, I would expect a manufacturer selling 25+ models of phone, most priced less than an iPhone, to sell. Wouldn't you ??

Obviously a claim that if we did a 1 Phone VS 1 Phone comparison then it would be "surprising and/or impressive". That Apple would sell more if we did that comparison. Notice the word "outsell" in your quote.

<snip>

You made the claim.

You back it up.

That's how it works here.

I'm embarrassed for you.

I made no claims about a 1 phone vs 1 phone comparison. You made that part up.

What is obvious is if I had wanted to make that claim, that is what I would have written.

Do you really think I could somehow prove how many phones samsung would sell if they they only made one phone ? I don't see how I could, and that's why I wouldn't (and didn't) make such a claim.

So, please, show us how if we did a 1 Phone vs. 1 Phone comparison that it would be Apple on top.

Stop dishonestly putting words in my mouth.

Also notice how in the last several posts I was being gracious and not even pointing out that you flat out lied and said Apple only makes 1 phone, when in reality they currently offer 3.

Apple makes 1 moedl, the iphone. It makes a new model once a year. They offer this years model, and the last 2 years models. Which is what I said. I didn't lie.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I take it you are in the USA? It is garbage. Try using it for Dubai.

I am. Since I have no intentions of going to Dubai, I'll take your word for it.

Don't use that anyway.

Even if you don't many people do, so it's a win.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

<snip>

Even though it was originally your claim that Apple would be outselling in a fair 1 vs 1 comparison.

no, it wasn't ...

After you realized that doesn't fly here at the JREF, and that you would be the one that has to present those numbers, you then did this new hilarious dance of trying to claim that that isn't what you were claiming at all!! Funny how you didn't tell us that until after you found out that you would be the one that has to give us the numbers....


Then again you post that you were merely pointing out how one company is selling more. And that you were merely pointing it out for no reason at all!! Which, I might say, is some of the weirdest damage control I have yet to see.

Just for giggles, here are apples sales figuers for FY2012:

q1 fy 2102: 37.04 million
q2 fy 2012: 35.1 million
q3 fy 2012 26 million
q4 fy 2012: 26.9 million *
-------------------------
That's roughly 125 million iphones.

The best I can find
for samsung is this:
http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/techscience/2012/07/22/99/0601000000AEN20120722002300320F.HTML
For the whole of 2012, sales of the smartphone that runs on the Android latest 4.0.4 "Ice Cream Sandwich" operating system, and features a 4.8-inch screen with Samsung's Exynos 4 quad core processor, could top the 40 million mark, making it an all time high for phones made by the South Korean tech giant.

http://blogs.strategyanalytics.com/...Best-Selling-Smartphone-Model-in-Q3-2012.aspx
Samsung’s Galaxy S3 smartphone model shipped 18.0 million units worldwide during the third quarter of 2012....However, the Galaxy S3’s position as the world’s best-selling smartphone model is likely to be short-lived. The Apple iPhone 5 has gotten off to a solid start already with an estimated 6.0 million units shipped globally during Q3 2012. We expect the new iPhone 5 to out-ship Samsung’s Galaxy S3 in the coming fourth quarter of 2012

It's clear however you slice it - Samsungs high end iphone equivalent, the new Galaxy S III barely beat Apples 1 year old iphone 4s. The majority of smartphones Samsung sells are no more than feature phones.

The top 3 Samsung phones are absolutely destroying the top 3 Apple Phones. You can't even come up with convincing spin to make it not so. Also, the gap is widening.

*
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/01/24Apple-Reports-First-Quarter-Results.html
http://bgr.com/2012/04/24/apple-crushes-estimates-in-q2/
http://www.zdnet.com/apple-q4-2012-hardware-sales-by-the-numbers-7000006435/
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2012/10/25Apple-Reports-Fourth-Quarter-Results.html

 

[carlitos]

The majority of smartphones Samsung sells are no more than feature phones.

I have posted some of this before; maybe you missed it.

link

In the second quarter of 2012, Samsung's mobile phone sales remained very strong — up 29.5 percent from the second quarter of 2011 (see Table 1), and managed to extend its lead over both Apple and Nokia quarter on quarter. This quarter's growth was driven by record sales of Galaxy smartphones, meaning smartphones now account for 50.4 percent of all Samsung mobile devices, or 45.6 million units. Demand for the new Galaxy S3 was particularly strong, exceeding Samsung's own expectations, with a reported 10 million units reached in the two months after its release. The Galaxy S3 was the best-selling Android product in the quarter and could have been higher but for product shortages.

So that's 45.6 million Samsung smartphones in a quarter ending in July, or before the Galaxy S3 was really taking off. If you included non-smartphones Samsung moved around 90 million units that quarter.

45.6 million > 26.9 million

And no need to worry about ships vs. sales:

Worldwide Mobile Device Sales to End Users by Vendor in 2Q12 (Thousands of Units)

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I have posted some of this before; maybe you missed it.

link


So that's 45.6 million Samsung smartphones in a quarter ending in July, or before the Galaxy S3 was really taking off. If you included non-smartphones Samsung moved around 90 million units that quarter.

45.6 million > 26.9 million

And no need to worry about ships vs. sales:

I understand they are technically smartphones. But in actual usage, based on ad revenue, mobile browser tracking, etc, they appear to be practically no different than featurephones.

Just to be clear, though, yes, they are smartphones.

ETA: that's why I worded it: "no more than featurphones", but was not specific enough in my wording

 

[carlitos]

No True Smartphone?

 

[TheL8Elvis]

No True Smartphone?

Sure. But to try to make it less fallacious ...

Companies are trying to make money from the smartphone experience, through mobile ads, etc.
For example:
http://www.economistgroup.com/leanb...gh-options-for-monetizing-smartphone-content/

If a large portion of the android smartphone market actually consists of handsets that are not updated and are not used for mobile web, etc, then the share of the market is less important then the percentage of that share that can be monetized.

I think this is a separate topic, and we can move it to a new thread if you want to discuss it, but I hope that explains where I was coming from with the comment.

 

[carlitos]

I read somewhere that Android users were more likely to use mobile web vs. Apple users. IIRC, the vast majority of bandwidth consumed by Apple users is via WiFi. One theory proposed for why was how the different OS prompts you to find WiFi networks.

As of May, global pageviews for Android and iOS are exactly the same, at around 23-24% share.

http://mobithinking.com/mobile-marketing-tools/latest-mobile-stats/b

 

[SatansMaleVoiceChoir]

I consider gadgets to be my major vice, and keep a very close and keen eye on the latest tech developments, so I make a point of looking out for mobile phones in the wild to see who is using what.

There are 10 people who work in our offices on a permanent basis, and every single one of them has an iPhone 4 or 4S. Of the 8 or so people who work in our Sister Offices at the other end of the corridor, 6 of them have iPhones, again the 4/4S. One person has the Galaxy S3, and he is the other owner of the two S3's I have seen in the wild. I'd guess that about 70% of the people I see in and out of our office during the day own an iPhone.

All my close friends, and the vast majority of my friends own iPhones. If I look at my FB friends, I'd say about 80% of them own iPhones.

I can't speak for the rest of the world, but everywhere I've ever been in the UK I see more people with iPhones than any other kind.

I have the iPhone 5 myself, and I am extremely happy with it. It's just large enough while being comfortable to use, slim and light and extremely fast and smooth.